Steel cased ammo in semis. Good, bad or depends?

Pond, James Pond · August 30, 2014, 05:57 AM

I've read that steel cased ammo in semi pistols will damage the breech face with extensive use.

I've also read that steel ammo in a bolt action is no worse for the gun than good brass.

What about semi-auto rifles? My guess is that the same applies as with pistols, but are there some more resilient to/prone to damage than others?

I ask in the context of the CZ VZ58 (858 to me) compared to ARs in general.

Over here, steel cased is significantly cheaper than brass cased and probably cheaper than reloaded too. I'd be interested to know what the general consensus is about the effects to these platforms.

Jim567 · August 30, 2014, 07:22 AM

The non hardened steel they use is softer than brass.
I watched a video of a guy performing hardness tests on various steel and brass case manufacturers.
The steel was softer across the board.

Pond, James Pond · August 30, 2014, 07:28 AM

So why does steel get a bad rep'?

Jim567 · August 30, 2014, 07:46 AM

It's different?
Cheaper dirtier powder and bullets some use on the rounds?
I just bought some expensive Hornady steel cased 7.62 x 39
Can't wait to shoot it. Supposed to be very accurate.

kraigwy · August 30, 2014, 07:48 AM

Besides holding the powder, primer and bullet together the main purpose of the cartridge case is to seal the chamber.

Hardness testing notwithstanding, brass is more consistent with its expanding to seat the case.

I can't say it hurts the gun or not since I wont use steel in my guns so I don't know.

But ask yourself why you never see target shooters using steel cases in their accuracy loads.

Jim567 · August 30, 2014, 08:17 AM

The steel rounds are coated with whatever to prevent corrosion.
I notice this fouling the chamber of my AK.
Not badly. More like staining it - but.
It does not concern me at all in an AK and that's all I shoot steel cases in.

Pond, James Pond · August 30, 2014, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Not badly. More like staining it - but.
It does not concern me at all in an AK and that's all I shoot steel cases in.

So that is the only down-side and steel-case do not harm the gun?

Quote:

But ask yourself why you never see target shooters using steel cases in their accuracy loads.

I don't doubt that brass is the higher quality option, but in a close range competiton/range gun, it seems steel cased could mean cheaper practice even compared to reloaded ammo.

Jim567 · August 30, 2014, 08:33 AM

I hesitate to give more of an opinion on it.
Would be out of my league and personal experience wich consists only of firing 1k rounds through an AK.
So I will just say - it doesn't scare me lol.

Mosin-Marauder · August 30, 2014, 08:36 AM

My Mosin likes the lighter Tula stuff. As well as the Steel Cased Copper Washed Surplus. Can't speak for Semi's though, so sorry.

Jim567 · August 30, 2014, 08:39 AM

It does not scare Hornady

Will give a range report next time I go.
Supposed to be very accurate in an AK

Mrgunsngear · August 30, 2014, 09:06 AM

It really depends on what the shooter wants out of the ammo. I go over it in detail in the video below but I shoot both steel case and brass case ammo FWIW.

Shooting Steel Case Ammo FAQ Video

precision_shooter · August 30, 2014, 10:54 AM

plouffedaddy: There seems to be some misinformation in your video, specifically regarding steel jacketed bullets...

1. When the majority of people mention "Steel Cased" they are NOT referring to the bullet jacket material or steel jacketed bullets. Misconception on your part?

2. You mention that if one is going to shoot steel jacketed bullets, they should stick to heavier bullet weights because the heavier bullets are going slower and create less friction. The heavier bullets will have a longer bearing surface of bullet touching the barrel. This will create more friction and wear or at least the same amount as a lighter bullet with less bearing surface but traveling at a higher rate of speed.

Bartholomew Roberts · August 30, 2014, 11:40 AM

kraigwy nailed the major difference I am aware of - brass expands differently than steel and makes a better seal. In some rifles, it also effects the timing and thus the reliability.

I can say that the Hornady steel cased training ammo is more accurate than most brass cased ball ammo, so while steel may not be optimum for that, it doesn't appear to be a major factor.

Jim567 · August 30, 2014, 12:02 PM

I can only speak to reliability in my two AKs
Almost a 1000 rounds TulAmmo. 7.62x39 Steel case.
Not one hick up.
I have had two failure to fire in 500 rounds Lake City 5.56. Brass case in my ARs

Not that that means too much.

ttarp · August 30, 2014, 12:17 PM

It seems fairly accepted that the casings themselves while having some disadvantages over brass, don't harm your gun. That being said, some guns don't like it and some manufactures say not to use steel cased ammo in their guns. The issue with the steel cased ammo is it usually has steel bullets which will over a long period of time and many rounds fired will wear your barrel out faster. How much does a typical AR barrel cost? How much does 10,000 rounds of steel vs brass cost? Are you a benchrest shooter looking for every ounce of accuracy you can gain, or do you just like to get out and shoot?

Jim567 · August 30, 2014, 12:24 PM

I have only shot steel case.
Have not come across any steel clad bullets.

zach_ · August 30, 2014, 01:49 PM

I purchased a box of the Hornady Steel match. I am going to try it. After reading the point about the case expansion in one of the trade mags, the writer mentioned that the chamber gets fouled to a point of being sticky if you were to shoot brass cased ammo after shooting enough of the steel case ammo prior to cleaning the rifle. The writer did not specify the number of rounds, I think. I don't want to get off the couch and go to the bathroom to look right now.

GunXpatriot · August 30, 2014, 03:03 PM

zach, I was just going to mention that, actually. I watched this a while back. Just talks about the facts of using steel cased ammo. And I've found these things to be true for me, with my SKS. It's from Military Arms Channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960

precision_shooter · August 30, 2014, 03:17 PM

zach, it all depends on the gun and how "loose" the chamber is as well as the cartridge itself.
In my friends savage bolt action, 5 shots using steel cased .308, 6th shot was brass cased. Unlocked the bolt, which was very stiff, the brass case was stuck to the point he had to knock it out with a rod down the barrel.

Cleaned the chamber and now he only shoots brass cased ammo with no more issues of stuck cases.

skizzums · August 30, 2014, 03:18 PM

i have shot thousands and thousands of rounds of steel in an sks and a vz58, no issues whatsoever, i have about a thousand rounds in 223, the issue i have is that in the AR the steel is more brittle than brass and the extractor breaks of the rim of the case, so i have to pound it out with a cleaning rod

but, is that because the steel is more brittle? or because the round is getting stuck in my chamber too tight? maybe a little of both

problem i see with steel cases ammo(hornaday not included) is that if you read the box, it will usually say bi-metal jacket, meaning the jacket is also has steel content, sometimes its layered and sometimes it is an alloy; but either way it is shown to wear a barrel down faster

people talk about it not creating a seal and letting dirt blowback into the action, i find that to be total BS, they seal the chamber tighter than brass in mine(ie, they expand to a greater diameter overall) and i would like to see how they KNOW they get more dirt in their action; i for one do not have any cutting marks on the steel, which would be a good indicator of blowback

velocette · August 30, 2014, 04:04 PM

When we talk about steel cased ammo in an AR type rifle it is a problem with cases sticking in the chamber. With AK type rifles there is rarely a problem.
I can say with excellent confidence that using steel cased ammo in an some AR rifles will be a problem. It depends upon the AR chamber and the type of steel cased ammo and the quantity.
I'm a range officer at a large municipal range in south Florida. When we have stuck cases in an AR it is almost always a steel case that is stuck. Every weekend we have at least three or four stuck cases demanding our steel bore rod to knock them out. We have had stuck cases with AK type rifles but it is rare.
To be safe, we suggest that steel cased ammo users clean their chambers thoroughly and to NEVER use steel cased ammo for serious purposes.

T. O'Heir · August 30, 2014, 04:10 PM

"...why does steel get a bad rep..." Usually but not always milsurp. And it's not reloadable. However, as mentioned, the steel used in cartridges is mild steel and is much softer than any steel used in any firearm. Even the real junkers.
"...how "loose" the chamber is..." Nope. You're buddy saw what happens when shooting coated, usually lacquer, milsurp cases.
"...steel clad bullets..." Milsurp. Steel jackets. Still mild steel.

salvadore · August 30, 2014, 04:11 PM

I shoot Ukranian invading romeo foxtrot ammo in my M-1 carbine slightly less accurate than my handloads and chronograph @ 2000fps.

Model12Win · August 30, 2014, 04:35 PM

For the SKS or AK series rifles, or most other combloc weapons, they are fine with steel cased ammo. In fact, it's hard to find anything but steel cased 7.62x39mm that isn't on the pricey side.

Now for the AR series rifles, that may or may not be different. I have read the chambers of various American/Western firearms and there designs don't lend as well to steel cased ammo. This may or may not be true depending on the weapon. I know I had a steel cased .223 Wolf round get stuck in an AR once after shooting just a few round in it. Therefore, I tend to not use steel in ARs but others have great luck with it. I just stick to brass in ARs.

But to answer your question... I think your CZ 858 will be just FINE with steel cased ammo. Shoot it!

AK103K · August 30, 2014, 08:54 PM

I believe some of the issue with the AR's and steel cased ammo, was due to the lacquer coating they were initially using early on, which left a residue build up in the chambers, especially when the guns were hot. I believe they switched over to a different coating and with better results.

Ive had troubles with one AR and brass cases, so its not just steel. With so many people making them and their parts these days, there are some variables there.

Then theres always the issue of those who seem to think they dont need to clean their guns after each outing.

Other than a couple of duds per case or so with Wolf, Ive never had any issues with the Russian steel cased 7.62x39 shot in my AK's and SKS's, and Im talking tens of thousands of rounds over the past 20 years or so.

August 30, 2014, 05:57 AM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Steel cased ammo in semis. Good, bad or depends? I've read that steel cased ammo in semi pistols will damage the breech face with extensive use. I've also read that steel ammo in a bolt action is no worse for the gun than good brass. What about semi-auto rifles? My guess is that the same applies as with pistols, but are there some more resilient to/prone to damage than others? I ask in the context of the CZ VZ58 (858 to me) compared to ARs in general. Over here, steel cased is significantly cheaper than brass cased and probably cheaper than reloaded too. I'd be interested to know what the general consensus is about the effects to these platforms. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

August 30, 2014, 07:28 AM	#3
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	So why does steel get a bad rep'? __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

August 30, 2014, 07:48 AM	#5
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Besides holding the powder, primer and bullet together the main purpose of the cartridge case is to seal the chamber. Hardness testing notwithstanding, brass is more consistent with its expanding to seat the case. I can't say it hurts the gun or not since I wont use steel in my guns so I don't know. But ask yourself why you never see target shooters using steel cases in their accuracy loads. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

August 30, 2014, 08:36 AM	#9
Mosin-Marauder Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2014 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,320	My Mosin likes the lighter Tula stuff. As well as the Steel Cased Copper Washed Surplus. Can't speak for Semi's though, so sorry. __________________ Proud owner of three (four-ish) pieces of history! K-31, Mosin-Nagant M91/30, M24/47 Mauser, Norinco SKS. "You might as well appeal against a thunderstorm..." William Tecumseh Sherman

August 30, 2014, 09:06 AM	#11
Mrgunsngear Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2011 Location: Carolina Posts: 3,415	It really depends on what the shooter wants out of the ammo. I go over it in detail in the video below but I shoot both steel case and brass case ammo FWIW. Shooting Steel Case Ammo FAQ Video __________________ Mrgunsngear Youtube Channel

August 30, 2014, 07:22 AM	#2
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	The non hardened steel they use is softer than brass. I watched a video of a guy performing hardness tests on various steel and brass case manufacturers. The steel was softer across the board.

August 30, 2014, 07:46 AM	#4
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	It's different? Cheaper dirtier powder and bullets some use on the rounds? I just bought some expensive Hornady steel cased 7.62 x 39 Can't wait to shoot it. Supposed to be very accurate.

August 30, 2014, 08:17 AM	#6
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	The steel rounds are coated with whatever to prevent corrosion. I notice this fouling the chamber of my AK. Not badly. More like staining it - but. It does not concern me at all in an AK and that's all I shoot steel cases in.

August 30, 2014, 08:33 AM	#8
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	I hesitate to give more of an opinion on it. Would be out of my league and personal experience wich consists only of firing 1k rounds through an AK. So I will just say - it doesn't scare me lol.

August 30, 2014, 08:39 AM	#10
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	It does not scare Hornady Will give a range report next time I go. Supposed to be very accurate in an AK

August 30, 2014, 10:54 AM	#12
precision_shooter Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 2,475	plouffedaddy: There seems to be some misinformation in your video, specifically regarding steel jacketed bullets... 1. When the majority of people mention "Steel Cased" they are NOT referring to the bullet jacket material or steel jacketed bullets. Misconception on your part? 2. You mention that if one is going to shoot steel jacketed bullets, they should stick to heavier bullet weights because the heavier bullets are going slower and create less friction. The heavier bullets will have a longer bearing surface of bullet touching the barrel. This will create more friction and wear or at least the same amount as a lighter bullet with less bearing surface but traveling at a higher rate of speed. __________________ "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson, 1776 Last edited by precision_shooter; August 30, 2014 at 12:24 PM.

August 30, 2014, 11:40 AM	#13
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	kraigwy nailed the major difference I am aware of - brass expands differently than steel and makes a better seal. In some rifles, it also effects the timing and thus the reliability. I can say that the Hornady steel cased training ammo is more accurate than most brass cased ball ammo, so while steel may not be optimum for that, it doesn't appear to be a major factor.

August 30, 2014, 12:02 PM	#14
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	I can only speak to reliability in my two AKs Almost a 1000 rounds TulAmmo. 7.62x39 Steel case. Not one hick up. I have had two failure to fire in 500 rounds Lake City 5.56. Brass case in my ARs Not that that means too much. Last edited by Jim567; August 30, 2014 at 12:28 PM.

August 30, 2014, 12:17 PM	#15
ttarp Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2013 Posts: 888	It seems fairly accepted that the casings themselves while having some disadvantages over brass, don't harm your gun. That being said, some guns don't like it and some manufactures say not to use steel cased ammo in their guns. The issue with the steel cased ammo is it usually has steel bullets which will over a long period of time and many rounds fired will wear your barrel out faster. How much does a typical AR barrel cost? How much does 10,000 rounds of steel vs brass cost? Are you a benchrest shooter looking for every ounce of accuracy you can gain, or do you just like to get out and shoot?

August 30, 2014, 12:24 PM	#16
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	I have only shot steel case. Have not come across any steel clad bullets.

August 30, 2014, 01:49 PM	#17
zach_ Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2014 Location: DFW north Posts: 377	I purchased a box of the Hornady Steel match. I am going to try it. After reading the point about the case expansion in one of the trade mags, the writer mentioned that the chamber gets fouled to a point of being sticky if you were to shoot brass cased ammo after shooting enough of the steel case ammo prior to cleaning the rifle. The writer did not specify the number of rounds, I think. I don't want to get off the couch and go to the bathroom to look right now.

August 30, 2014, 03:03 PM	#18
GunXpatriot Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2011 Location: New York Posts: 393	zach, I was just going to mention that, actually. I watched this a while back. Just talks about the facts of using steel cased ammo. And I've found these things to be true for me, with my SKS. It's from Military Arms Channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960

August 30, 2014, 03:17 PM	#19
precision_shooter Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 2,475	zach, it all depends on the gun and how "loose" the chamber is as well as the cartridge itself. In my friends savage bolt action, 5 shots using steel cased .308, 6th shot was brass cased. Unlocked the bolt, which was very stiff, the brass case was stuck to the point he had to knock it out with a rod down the barrel. Cleaned the chamber and now he only shoots brass cased ammo with no more issues of stuck cases. __________________ "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson, 1776

August 30, 2014, 03:18 PM	#20
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	i have shot thousands and thousands of rounds of steel in an sks and a vz58, no issues whatsoever, i have about a thousand rounds in 223, the issue i have is that in the AR the steel is more brittle than brass and the extractor breaks of the rim of the case, so i have to pound it out with a cleaning rod but, is that because the steel is more brittle? or because the round is getting stuck in my chamber too tight? maybe a little of both problem i see with steel cases ammo(hornaday not included) is that if you read the box, it will usually say bi-metal jacket, meaning the jacket is also has steel content, sometimes its layered and sometimes it is an alloy; but either way it is shown to wear a barrel down faster people talk about it not creating a seal and letting dirt blowback into the action, i find that to be total BS, they seal the chamber tighter than brass in mine(ie, they expand to a greater diameter overall) and i would like to see how they KNOW they get more dirt in their action; i for one do not have any cutting marks on the steel, which would be a good indicator of blowback __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

August 30, 2014, 04:04 PM	#21
velocette Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2007 Location: South Florida Posts: 924	When we talk about steel cased ammo in an AR type rifle it is a problem with cases sticking in the chamber. With AK type rifles there is rarely a problem. I can say with excellent confidence that using steel cased ammo in an some AR rifles will be a problem. It depends upon the AR chamber and the type of steel cased ammo and the quantity. I'm a range officer at a large municipal range in south Florida. When we have stuck cases in an AR it is almost always a steel case that is stuck. Every weekend we have at least three or four stuck cases demanding our steel bore rod to knock them out. We have had stuck cases with AK type rifles but it is rare. To be safe, we suggest that steel cased ammo users clean their chambers thoroughly and to NEVER use steel cased ammo for serious purposes. __________________ Trigger control + Breath control + Sight alignment = Gun Control. http://www.hrpclub.info/ NRA Smallbore Prone Master, High Power Master

August 30, 2014, 04:10 PM	#22
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...why does steel get a bad rep..." Usually but not always milsurp. And it's not reloadable. However, as mentioned, the steel used in cartridges is mild steel and is much softer than any steel used in any firearm. Even the real junkers. "...how "loose" the chamber is..." Nope. You're buddy saw what happens when shooting coated, usually lacquer, milsurp cases. "...steel clad bullets..." Milsurp. Steel jackets. Still mild steel. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

August 30, 2014, 04:11 PM	#23
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	I shoot Ukranian invading romeo foxtrot ammo in my M-1 carbine slightly less accurate than my handloads and chronograph @ 2000fps.

August 30, 2014, 04:35 PM	#24
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	For the SKS or AK series rifles, or most other combloc weapons, they are fine with steel cased ammo. In fact, it's hard to find anything but steel cased 7.62x39mm that isn't on the pricey side. Now for the AR series rifles, that may or may not be different. I have read the chambers of various American/Western firearms and there designs don't lend as well to steel cased ammo. This may or may not be true depending on the weapon. I know I had a steel cased .223 Wolf round get stuck in an AR once after shooting just a few round in it. Therefore, I tend to not use steel in ARs but others have great luck with it. I just stick to brass in ARs. But to answer your question... I think your CZ 858 will be just FINE with steel cased ammo. Shoot it!

August 30, 2014, 08:54 PM	#25
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	I believe some of the issue with the AR's and steel cased ammo, was due to the lacquer coating they were initially using early on, which left a residue build up in the chambers, especially when the guns were hot. I believe they switched over to a different coating and with better results. Ive had troubles with one AR and brass cases, so its not just steel. With so many people making them and their parts these days, there are some variables there. Then theres always the issue of those who seem to think they dont need to clean their guns after each outing. Other than a couple of duds per case or so with Wolf, Ive never had any issues with the Russian steel cased 7.62x39 shot in my AK's and SKS's, and Im talking tens of thousands of rounds over the past 20 years or so.