.22 Concealed Carry? - Page 3

samsmix · September 8, 2015, 08:47 PM

Bill deShivs,

Quote:

Maybe, but not much.

Did you mean that a (.380 or a) 9mm would not be much better than a .22lr? If so, please explain. The 9mm isn't the Hammer of Thor, but I would think it vastly superior to the .22lr.

Bill DeShivs · September 8, 2015, 09:08 PM

Sigh.....
OK- NO handgun is the "hammer of Thor." The ONLY sure shot is a CNS shot. Anything else, even the heart, gives an attacker ample time to do you harm.
SO- a CNS shot with a .22 does the same thing as a CNS shot with a .44 magnum- an immediate stop.
Given that the bigger calibers do have more power and diameter, they do have the advantage. But, how much REAL advantage?
Caliber is absolutely not a substitute for marksmanship.

Ibmikey · September 12, 2015, 09:24 AM

Unless belly to belly with an adversary where immediate reaction is your only option i echo Bill in suggesting with a pistol accuracy of your fire is more important than fire power no matter what the caliber. Even if the target is only a few feet away, particularly in a congested area with semi panicked persons, the placement of your shot is paramount to ending the crisis as quickly as possible. A carry pistol with a heavy trigger is surely going to defeat accuracy on that first critical shot, safeties can also work against the person who does not routinely train with placing the weapon into action and firing that first very important shot.

Guv · September 14, 2015, 11:32 AM

I've shot animals withboth the 22lr and 44magnum and there was a very distinct difference, no comparison.
Advantge: most are not going to be an expert shot under stress so counting on a CNS hit may not be realistic.

samsmix · September 14, 2015, 01:54 PM

Why the "sigh" Bill? I concur with your explanation, but your other comment didn't allow for all of that. Of course the "hammer of Thor" comment was mine, but I DO think there is a lot of difference between a .22 and a properly fed 9/.40/.45 etc. CNS hits are not all cranial-ocular hits. Sometimes the spine is inadvertantly hit by COM hits, but I would consider this neigh unto impossible for the .22lr from a handgun.

Bill DeShivs · September 14, 2015, 02:47 PM

I just get tired of saying it.
I'm sure the animals that Guv shot with the .44 were deader than the ones shot with a .22.
I am not advocating carrying a .22 What I AM advocating is that having a gun (any gun) puts you miles ahead of not having one. There is no doubt that bigger guns are better- but by what magnitude? My contention is "not very much."
Bullet size helps a very tiny amount, as does velocity and weight. But-you still need a CNS shot to be sure of a stop.
That is not to say that a hit somewhere else won't produce a psychological stop, or that simply producing a gun won't produce a stop. Odds are that it will.

Those that choose to lug a Desert Eagle around with them have an advantage if they have to shoot someone. The guy with the Browning .25 has an advantage 99.5% of the time because he is carrying a tiny gun. If the .25 guy actually has to shoot, and places his shots well-his armament is good enough.

Lee6113 · September 14, 2015, 02:51 PM

The other day I was at work in downtown Seattle, WA and witnessed a fight between some of the homeless population. The aggressive one got kicked out and stormed by where I was working (this has happened multiple times over the past few years), and I was definitely reminded that it is better to carry SOMETHING than nothing. I didn't have my 9mm on me, but the least I could have done was have a little mouse gun available. Sitting there with nothing was not a pleasant experience. Security wound up escorting him off property, but all the same, I would rather have a gun on me.

Armybrat · September 14, 2015, 05:25 PM

If you want to go little bitty, try the tiny North American Sidewinder - .22 Magnum 5 shot (swing out cylinder):

But I carry my Kahr CT380 or CW45.

j3ffr0 · September 15, 2015, 10:06 AM

CCI Velocitor would be my ammo of choice in 22LR. Of course a longer barrel = more punch but less conceal-ability. However, the original post seems to assume they already have the gun and don't want to buy anything else. So rather than seek a 22 with a longer barrel, I would buy a more potent gun at that point.

Guv · September 16, 2015, 05:57 AM

"I'm sure the animals that Guv shot with the 44 were deader than the ones shot with a 22." Silly me, I forgot that all you have to do is aim and squeeze the trigger (no matter what the cartridge) and bingo, there's your trophy!

boltomatic · September 17, 2015, 01:10 PM

The main issue is reliability. .22 guns and ammo tend to be less reliable than centerfire. That said, a .22 revolver with some good .22 ammo is pretty damn reliable.

The FACT is its extremely rare that a self defense attempt will fail because you didn't have enough "firepower". Most criminals flee as soon as they realize you are armed, and the remaining few that don't will not be able to successfully attack you after being shot with anything.

I know people disagree with me, but I've done my research. Stopping power is a marketing term and something keyboard commandos use to justify carrying a 1911.

Nothing wrong with carrying a .22 or a .45. SD is a personal thing, carry what you want and realize that a gun is the ultimate self defense tool regardless of caliber.

If anyone can produce a study or statistical trend that shows people who carry larger calibers have a greater survivability rate than people who carry small calibers, then please post it.

Guv · September 17, 2015, 10:09 PM

It's one thing to say a 22lr is okay for self defense and another thing to say there is no benefit in having a larger caliber (9mm, 38spl, 40 S&W, etc).

Cheapshooter · September 18, 2015, 09:34 PM

Quote:

If anyone can produce a study or statistical trend that shows people who carry larger calibers have a greater survivability rate than people who carry small calibers, then please post it.

Guess you never heard of Marshall and Sanow.

Not exactly survivanility rate, but one shot stopping percentage of 92% for 45acp VS 38% for 22 Stingers translates to a big advantage in my mind. Plus the aforementioned reliability advantage of center fire over rim fire.
Even the lowly 32acp showed almost double the rate of one shot stops with 66%. Only the 25acp showed a lower one shot stop rate of 27%.

Guv · September 19, 2015, 05:36 AM

I don't own one, but the sole/only reason I would choose a 25ACP over any rimfire would be the more reliable ignition. I don't know how many times I have rotated a 22lr after a miss-fire and it fired the second time after a hit in a different location of the rim. Is a 22 better than a sharp stick, no doubt, but I have better cartridges for the job of SD.

CajunBass · September 20, 2015, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Um...did the OP ever return?

Who cares? It's always a fun discussion.

I don't know that I've really found 22 LR to be all that unreliable. Sure, I've no doubt had more misfires with 22 than anything else, but I can't say it's really all that bad. Maybe I just forget them.

But...my wife used to carry a Bersa Thunder 22 in her purse. She liked the gun, she was confident she could shoot it well, and with CCI mini mags, it was as reliable as the sunrise. With any other ammo we tried, it would jam from time to time, but with the CCI...it just chugged along. She could put eleven shots in a nice little group, on target, and do a mag change in a reasonable amount of time even digging the extra mag out of her purse. She always said, "It's better than crying and begging 'Please don't hurt me.'" Praise God, she never had to try it for real.

Speaking of "hurt." I've got two buddies who were shot with a 22. One shot himself by stupid, the other got shot in a mugging. They both said it hurt like blue blazes. (Not an exact quote, but cleaned up for the forum.) The fellow who got mugged said he lost all interest in anything. HOLY XXXX I've been shot! Take my wallet, take my car...I don't care...OH MAN IT HURTS! (And he was hit in the arm.)

If I was going to look for a 22 for SD, I'd go looking for another Bersa Thunder or just get a Ruger Mark anything, standard with a 4" barrel. For the Bersa, I'd try to find a Don Hume, J.I.T. holster. I doubt they make one for FOR a Bersa, but one for a Walther would work I'm sure. The Ruger I might have to improvise for, or just go with an Uncle Mikes Sidekick and a longer cover garment.

JERRYS. · September 20, 2015, 07:37 AM

because of the shape of the cartridge and its rimfire ignition, I'd opt for a revolver in this caliber if I had to use it for self defense. an 8 shot LCR is better at least in my mind than an 8 shot semi-auto of comparable size.

**OldMarksman** · September 20, 2015, 09:00 AM

Posted by boltomatic:

Quote:

The main issue is reliability. .22 guns and ammo tend to be less reliable than centerfire. That said, a .22 revolver with some good .22 ammo is pretty damn reliable.

That is a significant factor, but it is not necessarily "the main" issue.

Quote:

The FACT is its extremely rare that a self defense attempt will fail because you didn't have enough "firepower".

Defensive use of force incidents are themselves extremely rare.

Quote:

Most criminals flee as soon as they realize you are armed, ...

Many of them maydo so, but that does not enter into my decision process.

Quote:

...and the remaining few that don't will not be able to successfully attack you after being shot with anything.

I don't think that that is an informed opinion.

Quote:

I know people disagree with me, but I've done my research.

Would you carrot share it?

Quote:

Stopping power is a marketing term and something keyboard commandos use to justify carrying a 1911.

It is a misused term, but I would not group all of its usage so narrowly.

Quote:

Nothing wrong with carrying a .22 or a .45.

Very few people who are knowledgeable about the subject recommend carrying a .22 rimfire handgun for self defense.

Quote:

SD is a personal thing, carry what you want and realize that a gun is the ultimate self defense tool regardless of caliber.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

Quote:

If anyone can produce a study or statistical trend that shows people who carry larger calibers have a greater survivability rate than people who carry small calibers, then please post it.

The facts that the number of variables is very high, that the number of incidents is very low, that few data are collected, and that if said data were collected, key measurements such as timing, the order of shots and hits, and so forth are very rarely known, make looking for that kind of study a veritable wild goose chase.

There are , however, good ways to study the question. Controlled testing of ammunition performance, informed medical opinion, and observations of shooters in realistic sessions can put a lot of light on the subject.

They will not and do not support the selection of a .22 handgun for self defense, absent certain mitigating circumstances.

September 8, 2015, 09:08 PM	#52
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	Sigh..... OK- NO handgun is the "hammer of Thor." The ONLY sure shot is a CNS shot. Anything else, even the heart, gives an attacker ample time to do you harm. SO- a CNS shot with a .22 does the same thing as a CNS shot with a .44 magnum- an immediate stop. Given that the bigger calibers do have more power and diameter, they do have the advantage. But, how much REAL advantage? Caliber is absolutely not a substitute for marksmanship. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

September 14, 2015, 01:54 PM	#55
samsmix Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2006 Location: Montana (Montucky?) Posts: 1,273	Why the "sigh" Bill? I concur with your explanation, but your other comment didn't allow for all of that. Of course the "hammer of Thor" comment was mine, but I DO think there is a lot of difference between a .22 and a properly fed 9/.40/.45 etc. CNS hits are not all cranial-ocular hits. Sometimes the spine is inadvertantly hit by COM hits, but I would consider this neigh unto impossible for the .22lr from a handgun. __________________ You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life. IF we're not supposed to eat animals, howcome God made 'em outta meat?

September 14, 2015, 02:47 PM	#56
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	I just get tired of saying it. I'm sure the animals that Guv shot with the .44 were deader than the ones shot with a .22. I am not advocating carrying a .22 What I AM advocating is that having a gun (any gun) puts you miles ahead of not having one. There is no doubt that bigger guns are better- but by what magnitude? My contention is "not very much." Bullet size helps a very tiny amount, as does velocity and weight. But-you still need a CNS shot to be sure of a stop. That is not to say that a hit somewhere else won't produce a psychological stop, or that simply producing a gun won't produce a stop. Odds are that it will. Those that choose to lug a Desert Eagle around with them have an advantage if they have to shoot someone. The guy with the Browning .25 has an advantage 99.5% of the time because he is carrying a tiny gun. If the .25 guy actually has to shoot, and places his shots well-his armament is good enough. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

September 12, 2015, 09:24 AM	#53
Ibmikey Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2013 Location: Now relocated to Texas Posts: 2,943	Unless belly to belly with an adversary where immediate reaction is your only option i echo Bill in suggesting with a pistol accuracy of your fire is more important than fire power no matter what the caliber. Even if the target is only a few feet away, particularly in a congested area with semi panicked persons, the placement of your shot is paramount to ending the crisis as quickly as possible. A carry pistol with a heavy trigger is surely going to defeat accuracy on that first critical shot, safeties can also work against the person who does not routinely train with placing the weapon into action and firing that first very important shot.

September 14, 2015, 11:32 AM	#54
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	I've shot animals withboth the 22lr and 44magnum and there was a very distinct difference, no comparison. Advantge: most are not going to be an expert shot under stress so counting on a CNS hit may not be realistic.

September 14, 2015, 02:51 PM	#57
Lee6113 Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2015 Location: Washington State Posts: 248	The other day I was at work in downtown Seattle, WA and witnessed a fight between some of the homeless population. The aggressive one got kicked out and stormed by where I was working (this has happened multiple times over the past few years), and I was definitely reminded that it is better to carry SOMETHING than nothing. I didn't have my 9mm on me, but the least I could have done was have a little mouse gun available. Sitting there with nothing was not a pleasant experience. Security wound up escorting him off property, but all the same, I would rather have a gun on me.

September 14, 2015, 05:25 PM	#58
Armybrat Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2009 Location: Round Rock, Texas Posts: 976	If you want to go little bitty, try the tiny North American Sidewinder - .22 Magnum 5 shot (swing out cylinder): But I carry my Kahr CT380 or CW45.

September 15, 2015, 10:06 AM	#59
j3ffr0 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2012 Location: VA Posts: 199	CCI Velocitor would be my ammo of choice in 22LR. Of course a longer barrel = more punch but less conceal-ability. However, the original post seems to assume they already have the gun and don't want to buy anything else. So rather than seek a 22 with a longer barrel, I would buy a more potent gun at that point.

September 16, 2015, 05:57 AM	#60
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	"I'm sure the animals that Guv shot with the 44 were deader than the ones shot with a 22." Silly me, I forgot that all you have to do is aim and squeeze the trigger (no matter what the cartridge) and bingo, there's your trophy!

September 17, 2015, 01:10 PM	#61
boltomatic Member Join Date: March 25, 2014 Posts: 98	The main issue is reliability. .22 guns and ammo tend to be less reliable than centerfire. That said, a .22 revolver with some good .22 ammo is pretty damn reliable. The FACT is its extremely rare that a self defense attempt will fail because you didn't have enough "firepower". Most criminals flee as soon as they realize you are armed, and the remaining few that don't will not be able to successfully attack you after being shot with anything. I know people disagree with me, but I've done my research. Stopping power is a marketing term and something keyboard commandos use to justify carrying a 1911. Nothing wrong with carrying a .22 or a .45. SD is a personal thing, carry what you want and realize that a gun is the ultimate self defense tool regardless of caliber. If anyone can produce a study or statistical trend that shows people who carry larger calibers have a greater survivability rate than people who carry small calibers, then please post it.

September 17, 2015, 10:09 PM	#62
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	It's one thing to say a 22lr is okay for self defense and another thing to say there is no benefit in having a larger caliber (9mm, 38spl, 40 S&W, etc).

September 19, 2015, 05:36 AM	#64
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	I don't own one, but the *sole/only* reason I would choose a 25ACP over any rimfire would be the more reliable ignition. I don't know how many times I have rotated a 22lr after a miss-fire and it fired the second time after a hit in a different location of the rim. Is a 22 better than a sharp stick, no doubt, but I have better cartridges for the job of SD.

September 20, 2015, 07:37 AM	#66
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,969	because of the shape of the cartridge and its rimfire ignition, I'd opt for a revolver in this caliber if I had to use it for self defense. an 8 shot LCR is better at least in my mind than an 8 shot semi-auto of comparable size.