Why Hollowpoints at all since there is EFMJ, Pow'r'Ball and EMB?

[Para Bellum]

Title says all. If you don't know EFMJ, Pow'r'Ball and EMB,
check these out:

EFMJ: http://www.thegunzone.com/efmj.html
EMB: http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb0.htm (The EMB also penetrates hard targets extremely well...)
Pow'r'Ball: http://mysite.elixirlabs.com/index.p...2665&page=1607

Given these bullets I see only disadvantages on the side of the hollow point bullets. Agreed?

[model 25]

The quality of the bullet manufacturer and the kind of weapon the round is used in makes a big deal. In a long barrel revolver a hollow point has a chance to reach the velocity for exspansion if the bullet is built right.

I do like the new design for feeding but I wonder about quality control, you put your life on the line by what you choose. I intend to wait and see before I would switch.


25

[Para Bellum]

...I forgot to mention, the EFMJ and EMB have also been tested by independent fellows: http://www.raoulwagner.com/tests2005.htm

both did pretty well in soft targets and through heavy clothing etc. The EMB did remarkably well also through tough hard barriers...

[OBIWAN]

From Dr. Gary K Roberts



"While an intriguing idea, in all the independent testing I have seen to date, the EFMJ has unfortunately exhibited inconsistent terminal performance. In no case, has an EFMJ performed as well as the better JHP’s in each caliber. "

"EFMJ has NO advantage over well designed JHP's, although it is an improvement over FMJ's."

"A well designed, JHP such as a Federal Tactical, Speer Gold Dot, or Winchester Ranger Talon tend to offer robust expansion, even against heavy clothing. The sharp edges of a deformed JHP tends to cut through tissue, while the rounded edges of a upset EFMJ can push tissue aside without cleanly cutting. The purpose of the IWBA 4-layer denim test is to assess the robust deformation ability of a projectile. If you read the test results provided here or from other science based facilities, you will discover that many well engineered projectiles offer good terminal performance in the IWBA denim test that is far superior to EFMJ."


From Shep Kelly, the well respected, former LE/Mil rep for Federal Cart:


"As with any ammunition product, what happens during the R&D stage and what happens in the actual production of millions of rounds stage, can be quite different. The EFMJ is dependent on velocity - needs to be at the upper end of the SAAMI envelope in all calibers, and the rubber/silicon used in the nose plug, coupled with the internal/external jacket scoring has to be 'just right' for it to work the way it was designed and did in initial testing. Tremendous concept! A bit tricky to consistently execute."

[cma g21]

I personally carry Pow'R'Ball, but NOT because I feel it is the most effective available round (there are a few with better with better terminal performance). However, I have found no hollow point that feeds as well.
I'll gladly sacrifice a little terminal effect, for a little increase in feed reliability.
In a revolver, I would chose a round with better terminal effects (since feeding from a magazine is not an issue).
YMMV

[Para Bellum]

OBIWAN,

anything found against the EMB as well?

[Handy]

I'm sure they also tend to cost more, and their enhanced feed properties aren't required in many modern guns that easily feed HPs.

[OBIWAN]

The only bad thing I ever read about them was that they could not be imported...

Has that changed

[OBIWAN]

And to Handy's point...except for my 50+ year old Star B's......

Every autoloader I own feeds HP's just fine

[biere]

When I become unhappy with my choice in hollowpoint ammo I will look to new ammo technology.

Until that time, my firearm and ammo are enough to get some bullet expansion when shooting varmints on my land so I am comfortable knowing I have made a reasonable decision.

Something else, while researching ccw I often saw people recomend shooting a few hundred rounds of your carry ammo before deciding it was reliable in your firearm.

With my choice in old hollow point technology this is not a money problem.

Some new rounds are a bit expensive to practice with.

[Jehzsa]

Go GAS! http://www.nles.com/store/customer/p...d=1600&cat=131

BAT in the US.

[OBIWAN]

Pricey

[Jehzsa]

Sure. Of course. But it doesn't take a lot to practice with it, Obiwan. For an experienced shooter, five rounds will do to get the feel for it. Reliability? That's Geco's top-of-the-line commercial model. The highest of the highest quality. Probably will never hear of a dud with it. And it will feed on any pistol. Any pistol.

Plus the added benefit of being able to punch a hole in a tire.

[CobrayCommando]

I'll continue using what the Navy SEALs and virtually every American law enforcement agency uses including I believe the Secret Service, hollowpoints.

Gold Dots baby.

As extensive testing (done at more ranges then 5 feet) apparently reveals, they have spotty performance. Corbon Powrball has always been a poor performer compared to top quality hollowpoints. Overall I would choose EFMJ if I couldn't use hollowpoints, or if my gun absolutely could not feed them reliably.

Plus the added benefit of being able to punch a hole in a tire.

Wow, my .22 will do that for 2000% less cost.

[Jehzsa]

Congratulations, CobrayCommando. You are the only knowledgeable person in the world who thinks that the Geco BAT(GAS) is pure, unadulterated baloney. Wow, that's certainly a unique distinction!

May I also suggest or imply that the next time you shoot a tire with a .22, that you please make sure to use the black ninja suit. It provides added protection. Better than the green suit.

[Para Bellum]

C'om on CobrayCommando:

Quote:
Plus the added benefit of being able to punch a hole in a tire.

Wow, my .22 will do that for 2000% less cost.

We are talking turning, moving tires at 30+ mph (50+km/h). Try that again with your .22. If you mean the kind of .22 I also own the one with the 45mm shell, then, I guess your .22 can do that.

And if my baby seal had gold dots I'd go show that to a vet immediately...

[Dave R]

The big advantage of JHP over frangibles is that the JHP has weight, and keeps it. So you generally get better penetration than the frangibles give. Also better performance shooting through barriers.

From what I've read, EMFJ seems like it performs about the same as JHP, but costs more. But I haven't priced it lately...

[Grape Ape]

30 mph is about 44 fps. I’ve never shot a tire that was moving, but I can’t how 44fps could cause a penetration problem (just a little hard to hit). Maybe someone should suggest this to the Mythbusters..

[Jehzsa]

Actually, that's one of the main reasons why the BAT was developed, Grape Ape. Because nothing else works like that with service handguns. Granted, if the tire is stationary the cheapest method is probably to cut the tire valve stem. And thereby save the expense of a bullet.

But, believe it or not, depending on the angle, with any other round the bullet might ricochet back. Fun for the whole family.

[TX_RGR]

The advantage of the EFMJ is that there is no hollowpoint to clog up and prevent expansion. This results in more consistent expansion under a varety of circumstances than a HP. You also don't have to worry about weight retention. I'm not saying this is God's gift to handguns, just throwing out a couple of things that weren't mentioned.

[TX_RGR]

The advantage of the EFMJ is that there is no hollowpoint to clog up and prevent expansion. This results in more consistent expansion under a variety of circumstances than a HP. You also don't have to worry about weight retention. I'm not saying this is God's gift to handguns, just throwing out a couple of things that weren't mentioned.

[Double Naught Spy]

I liked the product description (http://www.nles.com/store/customer/p...=1600&cat=131)...

The bat bullet has to be seen to be believed! A solid copper 84 gr. bullet that has no jacket is tipped with a nylon plug that allows perfect feeding in all 9mm pistols regardless of make or model. When you fire a BAT bullet, the nylon plug is ejected via a passage that leads to the power! An extremely sharp shouldered copper hollow point leaves the muzzle at over 1400 fps. One shot stopping power is in the 90% range and there is virtually no recoil or flash.

This is almost as good as a the descriptions for Extrem Shock ammo.

The part I thought that was most impressive was the bullet's, or maybe cartridge's, ability to overcome the laws of physics, or maybe they aren't sharing something salient with us. I find it hard to believe that you can get an 84 gr. bullet up to 1400 fps with virtually no recoil or flash. So either they overcame physics, shot the rounds from a benchrested and/or weighted down gun (no recoil) and did so in direct sunlight (no flash).

Maybe the magic comes from that amazing passage the nylon plug escapes through? I wonder if you plugged the passage, how much faster the round would go.

This round is extremely accurate at ranges up to 20 yards and is used by virtually every European police and security agency

Translation: "We sent a couple of sample boxes to every agency we could so as to drum up business and because most or all of the agencies at least tried shooting the ammo, they used it. So we can say our ammo is in use by that agency."

It would be really cool if they could produce a round with virtually no recoil and no flash for the .50 BMG. Then maybe they could make some 12 ga rounds with virtually no recoil as well! Woohoo!

Jehzsa said,

But, believe it or not, depending on the angle, with any other round the bullet might ricochet back. Fun for the whole family.

Wow, the round is amazing. The magic of the physics isn't limited recoil and flash but also added in is the ability to not ricochet off tires? WOW!

[OBIWAN]

I would never trust my life to any ammo that I had not tested to the tune of 200-300 rounds in my weapon

And a little research has showed that there are reports of function related issues with the Geco rounds and not real amazing terminal preformance either

Dr. Gary K. Roberts

"The 9 mm 83 gr Geco BAT was tested at LAIR by Dr. Fackler in the late 1980's into bare 10% ordnance gelatin.
Velocity was 1575 f/s, pen ranged from 28.8 cm to 35.5 cm with a max TC diam of 7 to 8 cm at depths of 7 to 8 cm. The recovered diameters ranged from 12 to 13 mm.

As a comparison, below is data from some other loads fired into the same block of gel: Federal 9BP 115 gr JHP at a velocity of 1142 f/s, pen of 26 cm, max TC diam of 7.5 cm at 10-11 cm and RD of 15 mm; Win 158 gr .38 SP +P LSWCHP out of a 2" J-frame penetrated 35.7 cm, max TC diam of 5.5 cm at 7 cm and RD of 13 mm.

In other words, the BAT terminal performance is nothing special and is fully eclipsed by most modern 9 mm JHP designs such as the Winchester Ranger Talon, Speer Gold Dot, and Federal Tactical."

Quote from a european contact

"Action 1 and 3 were the police duty ammo for our special weapons and tactic teams for many years. The only problem concerning the weapons they had was the chamber pressure that was too high so the guns showed increased wear after a while.
Wound ballistics of Action 1 and 3 is not very impressive. Action 1 is good expansion but bad penetration, Action 3 shows deep penetration but bad deformation.
Up to 2001 the standard police in Germany had to use fmj because politicians didn´t allow the use of premium hollow point ammunition. After a tragic incident they introduced deformation projectiles made complete of brass alloy".

Stateside comments

"I would not trust the stuff. I had a bunch of it in the late 1980s and fired about 100 trouble free rounds through a Glock and a H&K P7-M8. Worked perfectly. I tried some of the same ammo in the early 1990s and got a frightening number of failure to fires in both guns. I mentioned it to a friend in California and he tried the same and had similar results. This ammo apparantly has a short shelf life. My friend wrote an article about this that appeared in the 1999 issue of Special Weapons for Military and Police."

But keep looking folks...the magic bullet may be out there

I would rather just use good ammo....and practice

[boogeyman]

the same reason why some people still dismiss glocks as real weapons. a fear of something new; and furthermore, better than the rest. all the new hps and efmjs and yada yada yada all are great though. it really comes down to different strokes for different folks.

[CobrayCommando]

Congratulations, CobrayCommando. You are the only knowledgeable person in the world who thinks that the Geco BAT(GAS) is pure, unadulterated baloney. Wow, that's certainly a unique distinction!

May I also suggest or imply that the next time you shoot a tire with a .22, that you please make sure to use the black ninja suit. It provides added protection. Better than the green suit.

WTH?!

Excuse me in advance everybody.

Jane you ignorant slut.

In fact bring this, one more crap novelty round no doubt, to the attention of any true terminal ballistics expert and they will tell you what I have. Oh too late, OBIWAN has already brought that issue up.

As Double Naught said, the first thing I thought when I visited that site was "extremshockmagsafesuperglasergoatkillerultraswattacticalroundsonly50dollarsashot". Another crap novelty round again... sigh.

We are talking turning, moving tires at 30+ mph (50+km/h). Try that again with your .22. If you mean the kind of .22 I also own the one with the 45mm shell, then, I guess your .22 can do that.

And if my baby seal had gold dots I'd go show that to a vet immediately...

Oh hahahaha.

hahaha.

hahaha. Zing.

Its standard practice not to shoot tires on moving cars anyway. Bad things tend to happen. And we're assuming my .22 couldn't penetrate a moving tire, which I believe it could. But I've stopped caring already because what the hell does it matter, really? I find it ironic that jehsza accuses me of being a mall ninja, look at the filth he is spewing, buying these hyped up superturds. Jehsza if you ever need to fire at a moving tire I fear for humanity.

And many SEALs do use Gold Dots, which is allowed by international law because they are currently using them on terrorists.