M1 Garand Elevation

[NinerNation]

While on the M1, need some help (in two areas).

First, I recently obtained an M1 Garand from CMP and having difficulty zeroing, in particular, the elevation. Windage is fine but when zeroing in at 130 yards (max distance for our range), with the rear sight ALL the way down (bottomed out) the bullet strike is 8 - 10 inches above the X. Everything I see/read about adjusting the elevation has flexibility in raising/lowering the rear sight. I can't lower any more. Any suggestions?

Second, sorry about asking a question in a Reply to a Thread, but I cannot figure out how to initiate a New Thread. Have been told that when I open the forum in which I want to create a new thread, I will see a button called "New Thread." Have yet to see that. Any guidance? Maybe I'm not "opening the forum."

[Bart B.]

Niner, if your sight picture looks like this (fuzzy black pumpkin sittin' on a fence post)



and the range is 130 yards with bullets striking about 9 inches high above the bullseye center, you need a front sight whose height is about .060" higher that the one you have. Then your rear sight should zero at 130 yards about 3 or so clicks up from bottom.

I don't have an M1 unaltered front sight so I don't know how high they should be. If someone does, please measure it then post its height in this thread.

Niner, remove your front sight and measure how high the top of the blade is from its bottom. Once we find out if yours has been filed down to a lower height, you might build it back up with plastic steel. Then you get to practice your skills with jewellers' files squaring up that epoxy and making your front sight look like nice and new.

On the other hand, maybe yours has been filed down and a new one will fix the problem.

If a new front sight doesn't solve the problem, then there's somthing a bit out of whack internal to the rifle. Bedding, bent parts, op rod fit, whatever. A 'smith could cut out the front sight blade then mill a slot for a new, hand made one that's high enough to be silver soldered in place. Then blackened. But that's gonna cost a bit to do.

[kraigwy]

I just measured two M1 front sights, one on my "as issued" M1 and one on a new, never installed sight.

The front post is .215" high.

This puts me 8 clicks up from the bottom to be on at 100 yards. This is using the 6'O'Clock hold on the NRA 200 yard target reduced to 100 yards.

So as Bart said, measure your front sight and compare to what the new sight.

Don't screw with the rifle until you determine the height of your existing sight.

[Bart B.]

Thanks Cap'n Kraig.

[farnorthdan]

Another great place for everything M1 is the CMP forum, truly some amazing knowledge over there.

[NinerNation]

Bart & Cap'n Kraig,

Thx for all your input. Measured front sight and it is at .218 so it is right in the ballpark. I got this M1 from CMP, all new parts including the front sight; ergo, would not have been "altered" in any way. With the front sight at .218, must be the rear sight; you think?

Thx again, you guys are great.

[saltydog452]

Following this post.

I have a similar issue. Thought it was due to a overly tight sling. Still don't know much except that CMPs, or all non NM Garands, are, by design, 'Parts Guns'.

Supposedly, if there is a good shooter on the trigger, 'bumping the op rod fwd on the first round could result in a first round flyer.

I'm not good enough to tell the difference.

Please, keep posting your findings.

salty

[Orlando]

Its in a commercial stock right?? Common occurrence in those the barrel channel is to narrow holding the barrel up. You need to bevel the wood on each side so it can drop into the channel.
I does happen occasionally on USGI wood

[Bart B.]

Orlando says common occurrence in those the barrel channel is to narrow holding the barrel up. I don't think so. But the barrel has to have some downward force on it anyway.

If the lower band is contacting the stock ferrule lug (shown in above pic's) it will be correct. There's downward pressure from the stock pulling the lower band down when the barrel group's properly fit to the stock. And there has to be room to allow that to happen. Lubing that contact point ensures they go back to the same place after every shot.

With the Garand assembled, grab the lower band and stock with your hands then squeeze them together. If the lower band moves down and no longer contacts the lug on the ferrule, then goes back up and stops against the lug, your rifle's parts are fit right and there's plenty of room for the barrel group to move down. On match conditioned Garands, there's about 30 pounds of pull down force on the lower band.

[Orlando]

There should be no stock contact with the barrel in the barrel channel. It should float there. Yes there should be downward force.
It is a common occurance with commercial stocks to have to narrow of a barrel channel.
I have worked on atleast half a dozen of the Boyds/CMP stocks and they all needed work of some type or another.
If the channel is to narrow and is holding the barrel up from its proper position your POI will be to high and you will run out of adjustment.
Not saying this is what the OP's problem is but it is worth looking into

[Bart B.]

Orlando, if the receiver goes down into full contact after the barrel group's fit to the stock and the lower band grabs the stock ferrule, then the trigger group locks into place correctly, if the barrel touches the stock wood behind the lower band, it won't change much at all by removing wood in the stock's fore end.

Meanwhile, if the stock still holds the barrel up with the barrel group locked in place and the rifle shoots high with the rear sight bottomed, is that due to the barrel's muzzle axis pointing way above the line of sight axis?

[Orlando]

If the channel is narrow, barrel is resting on wood and is not dropping down as far as it should

You said:
"Meanwhile, if the stock still holds the barrel up with the barrel group locked in place and the rifle shoots high with the rear sight bottomed, is that due to the barrel's muzzle axis pointing way above the line of sight axis? "

Yes that is that due to the barrel's muzzle axis pointing way above the line of sight axis?



Here is a write up I did on the commercial stocks a few yearsago and just some of the issues I have found. There are a few more that I haven't listed. I need to go back and rewrite it in more detail and add a few things


Heres a few things you can do to improve the function and accurcy of your commercial Boyds/Dupadge/CMP stocks
. These things sometimes also need addressed on USGI stocks

Your rear sight bottomed out and still shoots high? Check the barrel channel, its probably to narrow and is holding the barrel up out of position. Simply bevel the corners of the channel off to allow clearance and let the barrel drop into proper posiiton
I had also had a problem with the stock ferrule setting to high and the Op Rod rubbed on it. ,I carved out some of the wood with a utility knife until it set in the proper position


Problem solved? Not yet, I then had to fill in the area on the bottom since the ferrule set lower so it would stay in place when tightened
I taped off the stock, and applied paste wax to the ferrule for a release.
Then placed JB Weld to the bottom of where the ferrule sets on the stock, put ferrule in place and start to tighten the screw but not all they way


Problem fixed.
Next issue, although it isnt a big one is sometimes the Boyds needs to have a cutout where the firing pin/bolt would hit

[Orlando]

Also may need alittle wood removed so the trigger clears when fired

If there is a small dent there the trigger is hitting and needs some wood removed or it can affect trigger pull


Now on to the next issue. Set action in stock and install/lock the trigger assembly. Looking from the side of the rifle there should be a very small amount of clearance approx 1 1/8 inch from where the back of the receiver sets up to the back of the receiver legs. Hold it up to the light will make it easier to see.

If your stock doesnt have this slight gap,wrap a piece of sandpaper around a block of wood and sand to proper clearance. Don’t need much



Also need to give the rifle the "Tilt Test"
This stock failed, you can see here where the Op Rod was rubbing slightly , remove wood as needed


Op Rod also rubbed inside pretty hard

Went to put her back together and found the nose of the rear handguard was to long and interfered with the front handguard, remove as needed


These are just a few things to check for on commercial Boyds stocks.

[jrothWA]

[This us usually done @ 200yds.]
first set the elevation 6 -8 click up from mechanical zero, fire a group,
adjust up / down to get group to center the "point of aim" with "point of impact"

If needed, FILE down, the front sight to raise the impact to the "POA" or replace with taller sight to lower.

The standard rule is: 0.008" = 1" change @ 200 up/down & the same for windage. "Kuhnhausen book of the M1 Garand & M14/M1A Rifle]

Once zero is known, count down to mechanical, loosen the retaining screw of the elevation knob and rotate same (turning the knob over the top/towards the front sight and align the "2" hash mark with the "reference line" on the receiver and then count forward the "number " of clicks [that got you to mechanical zero] and tighten the retaining screw, now rotate the Elevation knob back towards you counting as you go, when you reached that number that was your zero, the "2" index hash should be lined up with the receiver index line.

Since you have max range of 130yds, then sight at 100 and set the Elevation and the next line below "2".

Hope this helps? What ammo you using?

[Orlando]

You can go with a taller front sight "if" you cant find and correct the problem any other way but I would do that as last resort.
There is only one person that I know of that sells a tall Garand front sight, Roland Beaver
There is another way you can gian alittle on your year aperture if you don't have stock interference
You can file/grind a angle on the bottom of aperture which will let it adjust alittle lower gaining you some but in your case may not be enough

[Bart B.]

Orlando, if the barrel gets pushed up, doesn't the front sight go up with it?

[Orlando]

I "think" what is happening since the barrel does not have the free floating draw if setting hard on the stock channel it affects height POI
I cant explain it for sure or do I pretend to know , what I do know is what works
JMO yours may vary, take it or leave it

[bamaranger]

I have not read all posts, but is the ammo/slug weight in the right range for a Garand? An odd bullet weight (way to light) might cause an unusually high bullet strike.

[kraigwy]

Bullet weight would make a slight difference, only a click or so at 100 yards, no where near 8-10 inches at 130 years.

[Bart B.]

I agree with Kraig on very short range zeros with different bullets. Having shot bullet weights from 147 up through 190 grains from Garands at short range (under 200 yards), at most, a 1 click/MOA difference in elevation was needed to zero each.

Meanwhile, back to that fore end wood pushing up on the barrel. It'll push up between the receiver and lower band. As both are held in position mechanically, pushing up on the barrel between them causes that part of the barrel to bow upwards a tiny bit. That makes the muzzle axis point down a bit more. Go figure.

Orlando, if the barrel gets pushed up, doesn't the front sight go up with it? A simple "yes" or "no" answer will suffice; thanks.

[ZoneIII]

I realize that this post is very old but people will still find it as I just did and information has no age. Incorrect information, no matter how old, can cause people problems.

"The standard rule is: 0.008" = 1" change @ 200 up/down & the same for windage. "Kuhnhausen book of the M1 Garand & M14/M1A Rifle]"

Actually, that is incorrect. I'm surprised the experts here didn't notice this error. Each .008" change in windage is approximately 1MOA. So a .008" change would mean approximately a 1" change at 100 yards and a 2" change at 200 yards.

Since the original post included a reference, I will include one too but this information is in just about every book ever writing about the Garand.
"Hatcher's Book of the Garand, page 178."

[1stmar]

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see confirmation that the sight picture looks as Bart described. Also the base of the front sight should not be visible through the ghost ring. Bart do you have a sight picture as it would look if you were looking through the rear sight?

Are we sure the elevation drum is bottoming out?

[Bart B.]

No sight picture as seen through a Garand's rear sight. But you can take the front sight picture shown, draw a fuzzy black donut around it and that's what it looks like. Something like this:

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Erko...20062.jpg.html

[30Cal]

Check that the aperture hole is drilled in the center of the rear sight?

[bamaranger]

How familiar with a peep is the OP?

I sometimes see shooters "bottoming" the front sight base on the outline of the aperture, essentially using the bottom portion of the aperture like a sight leaf, thus lofting the front sight way to high.

Focus on the front post, allow the eye to center it naturally in your field of view, disregard the rear aperture, look through it, not at it.