Difference between a good 1911 and a REALLY good 1911 - With large images

[BConklin]

Hokey smokes!

I make a statement and you call me ignorant of the difference between what I said and what you think I actually meant - even though I did not say what you think I meant to say.....ever - and when I attempt to clarify what I did say (which is true - btw) you ask me why I'm being so defensive??

Even though you've assumed or inferred otherwise, I've never said anything to contradict your position that Dan Wessons are not "hard fit"...so why are you being so offensive? Did someone call your Les Baer ugly?

[WVsig]

Even though you've assumed or inferred otherwise, I've never said anything to contradict your position that Dan Wessons are not "hard fit"...so why are you being so offensive? Did someone call your Les Baer ugly?

Not at all. I do not take comments about guns I own personally. I did not buy a Baer because it was pretty. If I wanted a pretty gun I would have bought a Ed Brown. Look at your statement it was offered in direct rebuttal to the talk about the Baer being "hard fit".

Enjoy your production Valor it is one of the best production 1911s on the market. I do however get tired of people comparing it to a semi-custom gun like a Baer, Wilson or Ed Brown. It is what it is. A production 1911 made out of very nice parts.

[zombieslayer]

Judging from all I've seen and read the post 09' DW's are not just assembled of "nice parts". Are they not allowed to increase their quality and such? Yeah the price is gonna go up when you start getting in higher quality components and hand fitting.

[WVsig]

Judging from all I've seen and read the post 09' DW's are not just assembled of "nice parts". Are they not allowed to increase their quality and such? Yeah the price is gonna go up when you start getting in higher quality components and hand fitting.

They were "hand fit" when Bob Serva ran the shop. They were made with Ed Brown small parts back then.... Back then they did not have forged frames. The frames were cast, like Caspian, IIRC done very well by a Korean company.

The increase in cost is because they now have a name, built by Bob who is no longer involved, and a forged frame.

Same people same assembly line just a different frame and a $300 ceramic coating if you go with the duty coat. If you go stainless then you get a forged frame with basically the same parts and build quality.

PS how many pre 09' DWs have you handled, stripped and shot? How many post 09' DWs have you handled, stripped and shot?

[zombieslayer]

Where are you getting your info on the cast vs forged frames on DW's. Got any links to back up any of your claims?
And once again wv- Its already been established that I am by no means a gunsmith. Aweful snarky...
I own a DW. I've owned a few 1911's fired many more and molested countless examples. But as a consumer how many opportunities do you think I get to strip down a gun that doesnt belong to me?

[WVsig]

Where are you getting your info on the cast vs forged frames on DW's. Got any links to back up any of your claims?
And once again wv- Its already been established that I am by no means a gunsmith. Aweful snarky...
I own a DW. I've owned a few 1911's fired many more and molested countless examples. But as a consumer how many opportunities do you think I get to strip down a gun that doesnt belong to me?
Today 08:33 PM

Try this link:

http://tinyurl.com/3gaa4aw

The shops I go to on a regular basis will let me field strip a gun that is in the display case.

[Officer's Match]

VW is right about the frame change from cast to forged. And DW is making more of their own small parts, and they appear to be of high quality. I do believe the improvements (especially from 2010 on) are real, tangible improvements, and DW is enjoying the reputation bounce as a well deserved result.

[zombieslayer]

Really. They let ya strip brand new high end guns with precision fitted bushings and all? I wouldnt want to buy guns at a shop that lets guys just tinker with brand new $1000+ guns. But it sounds like fun. Consider yourself lucky.
According to CZ all Valors have forged frames btw.

[zombieslayer]

Wv your link brought up a google search. The first page listed is from 09. Red herring, eh?

[Officer's Match]

According to CZ all Valors have forged frames btw.

That would be correct. IIRC, Valors were the first DW 1911's with forged frames.

[WVsig]

So missing the point... DWs are great guns but like all guns they are what they are. DWs used to be cast they are now forged. That is the reason they jumped in price. The only current DW that is not forged is the guardian which IIRC is an alloy frame.

[zombieslayer]

Finally. That I will agree with. the part about the alloy. I wont argue any more about DW's improvements in '10. But I now have a clearer understanding of manufacturing processes as far as pistols go.

[Officer's Match]

It's all good fella's.

[KyJim]

The Guardian has a forged aluminum frame. http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/...sson-guardian/

I think the only cast frame still officially listed on their website is the RZ-45 Heritage. The Commander Classic Bobtail (CBOB) also has a cast frame. They list it as being discontinued on their website but they actually still make some for their California customers, though dealers and customers alike outside California have access to them.

DW made several changes in the 2010 Valor -- different sights, higher cut front strap and extended checkering, different (and supposedly better) fire control system. They also switched from a paint type coating to a metal treatment. That's about a $300 option over the untreated stainless version.

I think DW makes an excellent gun. I own three and am going to buy another. When you get into the price of a treated Valor, however, you have to start wondering if a Baer doesn't make sense. You can make arguments both ways on that.

[WVsig]

The Guardian has a forged aluminum frame. http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/...sson-guardian/

I think the only cast frame still officially listed on their website is the RZ-45 Heritage. The Commander Classic Bobtail (CBOB) also has a cast frame. They list it as being discontinued on their website but they actually still make some for their California customers, though dealers and customers alike outside California have access to them.

I stand corrected on the Guardian. I was right about it being alloy but it is forged. I also totally forgot about the Heritage line.

IIRC the current production CBOB is forged. Last I heard they still produce some for the CA market but that they are now forged frames like the valors. I could be wrong on that one too. Orginally they were cast but IIRC they changed them over when the started making the VBOB but did not "change" the model so they could still ship into CA.

[ttheel]

They were "hand fit" when Bob Serva ran the shop. They were made with Ed Brown small parts back then.... Back then they did not have forged frames. The frames were cast, like Caspian, IIRC done very well by a Korean company.

The increase in cost is because they now have a name, built by Bob who is no longer involved, and a forged frame.

Same people same assembly line just a different frame and a $300 ceramic coating if you go with the duty coat. If you go stainless then you get a forged frame with basically the same parts and build quality.

PS how many pre 09' DWs have you handled, stripped and shot? How many post 09' DWs have you handled, stripped and shot?
__________________

I disagree with this. And the Duty coat is not a ceramic coat, its a molecular level blackening of the Stainless steel. It is not a coating. As Dave Severns says the Valor series 1911's coming out of DW since 2010 are a different animal than the earlier models. Not saying that earlier models arent quality pistols....just not the quality of the 2010 forward models. Here is a direct quote from Dave on the 1911 forum:
"When you get a new Valor, you'll see that it is indeed an eschelon above your '09 in terms of quality. As most here know, there was a significant price increase between 2009 and 2010 for the DWs. Many think this price increase was only that; a price increase. What it probably not discussed enough here (and on other forums) is the increase in quality and performance that this price increase brought with it. Many 1911 afficianados are familiar with the older Dan Wessons and (unfortunately) draw their perfomance comparison conclusions based (only) on that obsolete experience. That is unfortunate, for they know not what they might be missing. It is fair to say that a 2009 or earlier DW is an entirely different gun than the new DWs, just as the 2009 DW is a superior gun compared to the early DWs."

[Officer's Match]

Dave has forgot more about 1911's since lunch than I've ever known. That said, I think he is a bit smitten by the current crop of DW's. If I were smart, I'd say "that's good enough for me". But that frankly doesn't dissuade my passion for the uber-impossibly tight fittament of the Les Baer 1911. I do think DW has surpassed such other highly regarded pistols as the SA TRP and perhaps even the STI Trojan with the current batch of Valors. But as I've already opined here, I love blued carbon steel 1911's. As such, DW isn't a player for me.