The Great TFL Pistol Hog Hunt Challenge! - Page 3

Capt. Charlie · October 29, 2005, 08:55 PM

I gotta tell ya Long Path. After reading your post, and then reading Rich's menu for the hunt, it's a wonder you TFL guys don't have Dunlap's Disease. You know, where it's "dun lapped" over your belts. Now I gotta get back to my Wendy's hamburger.

Harley Quinn · October 29, 2005, 09:15 PM

Hi,
I still have plenty of confidence in the 9mm, placement is the key. I am a petite 234.5 lbs, really...No dunlap on me.

The +p+ is really a law enforcement round. I had numerous bullets to choose from, that day I was loaded up with +p+.
I should have let fly the day Miko got the piglet. Quite a few were of the right size and running across in front of us, but I did not shoot the pistol and had a quick hiccup in the getalong.

To Cold, to much clothing, rifle was handy and the pistol was tucked away as a back up and I went for the 45-70.

Harley

H&H,hunter · October 30, 2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Ashley and I did some calculations of the number of equivalent Boars we've seen taken off the ranch in the past four years. By our rough calc's, we put the price of taking a trophy like that at right around $10K. No kidding. (I believe H&H Hunter will back me up on this....he hunts the same lease.)

Rich,

What I have such a hard time explaining to people is that this ranch is not a "game" farm it is nearly 200,000 acres of wild open country with terrain ranging from high dessert to lush dense swamps. The hogs are free and wild and are not concentrated in any one spot.

Hunting here is hit or miss. I've gone several months in a row with out shooting a single hog. And I've shot 15 or 20 in a day.

To connect on a toothy big old boar is truly a trophy hunt. And it's pretty darn rare. I've killed hundreds of hogs over the years on this place. And I've killed lots of big hogs. But to kill a big hog with good wild euro color and good teeth is very rare.

I've only killed one that fits that description perfectly in all the years I've hunted there.

Ashley and I always try and explain to people why certain rifles or pistols are a poor choice on this place. And usually without fail some "expert" will show up with his .243 or .25-06 or whatever with the explanation that he is only going to make head shots.

The results are always the same. Failure to stop is the technical term I believe.

You simply cannot reliably make a head shot on a running hog and these pipsqueak rounds simply will not produce pork on anything but the perfect shot angle. Perfect shot angle is something we seldom get on this ranch.

I have witnessed a big ole boar take a 180gr 06 round up the tail pipe, we never recovered that hog. Big old boars are tough especially once they get the juices flowing and that is why I like a heavier round that will penetrate. I really and truly consider the 06 or .308 to be a sensible minimum for hunting hogs on our place simply due to the conditions that we hunt in.

Just my humble and jaded opinion.

Greg

Harley Quinn · October 30, 2005, 01:06 PM

I agree with what you are saying 100%

In a stalking situation and closer shooting I think some of the big hand guns are ok (such as what Ashley carries).

But the way we were hunting the terrain and seeing what I saw and did, I believe the 45-70 is the premiere shooter, levers rule this roost. I took along a Gamemaster in 06 and never even broke it out. I was allowed to borrow a 45-70 and it rode nicely in the rack most of the time.

I was sighting in on a rock we had placed in the road and used numerous different loads. The power to rock and what was done on impact led me to believe (ashley also) that the +p+ was the best bet with the 9mm.

I walked a draw and saw so much sign, walked in the trails an thru the creek and was figuring I would get one of them 'critters' but not to happen.

First day out with Ashley I just about had the perfect shot but in one split second the huge Sow made a fast right turn behind a bush and that was it.

Ashley gave me loads of information I asked him lots and lots of questions. I felt very confident under all the conditions just having talked to him and getting the right scoop.

The size of that boar was a real treat, Rich could have taken the shot but the arrangement was for me to shoot and I did 3 times, then the shot was taken by Rich a milisecond late and that is how it happened. We can second guess ourselves and hindsight is 20/20, but it went down, I had a great time.

I saw more pig on that hunt then most do in a life time of hunting. The caper with Miko was worth the whole trip alone. Miko is going to be one great dog some day, great pup, just 8 months, doing what he did was a joy to participate in.

The quills he took to the face were unbelievable and when we got them out,
Rich cleaned him up with a disinfectant and off he went, never missing a beat on trying to get scent and track. LOL

Reminded me of a German Shorthair I had back in the 60s and early 70s. She was never the same after getting bit by a huge rattler, but then age takes it toll on dogs as well as us humans.

Rich lost a dog in the same area to a snake bite a few weeks before, (I was told). I was glad to see the temperature drop a little considering the amount of brush I crawled thru.

Never saw a snake the whole trip.

When I got back my wife had found a good web site about the Tejon ranch in CA and the amount of hogs taken there each year. I think I will give it ago, soon...

DIFFERENT GUN OF COURSE for primary, my pistola will be a 44 mag Blackhawk

Harley

H&H,hunter · October 30, 2005, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Rich lost a dog in the same area to a snake bite a few weeks before, (I was told). I was glad to see the temperature drop a little considering the amount of brush I crawled thru. Never saw a snake the whole trip.

Harley,

That was me who lost my dog several weeks before your hunt. he was a serious fire breather of a hog dog and had caught and or recoverd over 35 hogs before his untimley death.

His name was Kubi and will always have a spot in my heart and my fondest memories.

He started just like miko catching the little ones but after a a while he'd pass them up and grab to biggest thing he could find. They learn quick.

A quick memorial to kubi if the kind folks at TFL will allow......

Fairwell and asanti sana brave hunter....

**Rich Lucibella** · October 30, 2005, 02:32 PM

Rich

Harley Quinn · October 30, 2005, 03:50 PM

Hi,
I heard the conversation (LOL yea right)... Ashley told me that I was about as deaf or deafer then Bill Jordan...LOL

Rich can throw in his oar on this one I was having a tough time and we discussed that, but I am very hard of hearing and I was not wearing my Hearing Aids.

I did wear a set of hearing protectors that helped the hearing and the noise. I picked them up on my way through Amarillo when I got my 5 day lic. at the local Wal Mart right off of 40/287 area. I picked it up at 0 dark thirty, and continued on to Paduca to meet Ashley at the Texaco station.

So more then likly I just misunderstood.

I am sorry for your loss, Good luck with your new one. What make and model was your amigo?

I like those doubles what round were they in? That is a nice spear, is that made by Cold Steel?

I saw most of these pictures in Ashley's album...Nice...

Harley

roy reali · October 30, 2005, 04:32 PM

What species of venomous snakes do you have down there?

Vets now have a rattlesnake vaccination for dogs. The dog is given a series of shots. This builds up venom anitbodies and theoritcally the dog is immune from snake venom.

Sorry about your dog.

Capt. Charlie · October 30, 2005, 04:41 PM

Very sorry for your loss Greg. Damn, but they can come to mean as much as family! March before last I had to have my 17 yr old German Shepherd put down. I was one miserable SOB to be around for awhile, so I know what you mean. Hopefully, you'll find a good hunter and companion to fill the void soon.

Capt. Charlie · October 30, 2005, 04:47 PM

I could jump in on that, but I wouldn't want to "hog" the thread

. Anyhow, there was a discussion on hunting dogs and snakebite with info back in July, I believe. Here's the link to that thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=175059

Holman · October 30, 2005, 05:01 PM

Sorry about the loss of your good friend, Is he a German Hunt Terrier? Those are very brave dogs. They are like Dynamite! small with a big booom!

**Rich Lucibella** · October 30, 2005, 05:15 PM

Roy-
The vaccination is specific to Western Diamondbacks, though there is some evidence that cross protection against the Eastern variety also exists. Kubi was hit in the neck by a large Western Diamonback....questionable if anything would have helped, small as he was.

Miko has had the vaccination, but it does not provide immunity; it only lessens the severity.
Rich

H&H,hunter · October 30, 2005, 06:02 PM

Holman,
Yes Kubi was a German hunting terrier.

Harley,

The double is a .470 NE built by Butch Searcy of Ca. The spear is a cold steel asengi.

My wife is a Vet I had her do a post mortem on Kubi because I wanted to know if there was anything else I could have done to save him.

Kubi was bitten through the carotid artery and into the trachia. If I would have been standing there with a double bolace of anti-venom and administered it on the spot, he would have still died.

The venom, a massive dose, was mainlined to the heart, lungs, and brain. Kubi got hit with the golden B.B. of a snake bite.

We've since done some intensive reasearch on snake bites and survivability. There is no I repeat NO increase in survivability in dogs who've recieved anti venom VS dogs who didn't.

My wife is pretty sceptical on the usefullness of the new vacination. It really boils down to two factors, where the dog was bit and how much venom was injected. If the dog gets a fatal dose in the right spot he's going to die. If he doesn't he's going to live.

I'm afraid it's really that simple.

Thank you all for your kind words. They mean a lot to me.

Harley Quinn · October 30, 2005, 11:56 PM

I commend your deligence regarding the post work up on rattlesnake venom and the destruction it can cause.

Sometimes due to unforseen events things just go awry. It is that simple, and it is also appropriate regarding lifes ups and downs. No master orchestrater, just chance, be it good or bad...

Snake venom is one nasty item, I wonder if you atomized it and used it like a vaporous gas, how deadly it would be? Someone, somewhere has probably the information on it right now.

That 458 Lott is a good choice, if you don't have the handloads (does someone load that? Maybe A square) I figure you have all the answers to that one. I understand it can shoot the 458 Win Mag with no problem. Pretty trickey.

I will have to look into that and maybe have my 458 rechambered (reamed). I have a 1917 action with a bull barrel 458 on the end of it, weighs 19 pounds...LOL shoots sweet. Good for arm curls and early morning workouts to keep you in shape...

That 470 NE must really give you a whollup too. Pretty light looking. Do you have rate reducers in your gun stocks? Lots of pads and cushions???

I was reading a book by the 'Late and Great Jack Oconnor' about flinching with the big guns and why you should shoot something that is comfortable.
He was saying most shooters flinch (he did) and that is the reason for that miss that under most circumstances would have been a hit or the 'yank' rather than the squeeze.

Interesting way he put the feeling about most of the gun owners and how they never flinch. Right LOL...
The stress flinch is another one he was talking about. He feels that if you will actually admit it and work on it you can overcome it easily. Considered the surprise shot the way to do it, hold and squeeze and when it goes off it is a surprise.

One of the reasons he really liked the 270 as he got older (he knew the limitations of the round) was an easy shooter and he had complete confidence in the round, placement is the key. His opinion also.

I was surprised at how sweet the 45-70s were to shoot, easy to point etc.
I am looking for a Browning 358 lever as I write. I believe it would be a great shooter.
Load it up with some heavies and you can also load up some lightweights at over 3000 fps for rabbits and varmits same gun same feel, just switch the mags. Heck you could even load up those triple 50grain rounds, I think it would be a winner. Any ideas???

Those are some great pictures, thanks for sharing...

Harley

Quickdraw Limpsalot · October 31, 2005, 08:39 AM

Just wanted to jump in here and say that this thread has been a GREAT read, through all the twists and turns.

H&H,hunter · October 31, 2005, 10:09 AM

Quote:

That 458 Lott is a good choice, if you don't have the handloads (does someone load that? Maybe A square) I figure you have all the answers to that one. I understand it can shoot the 458 Win Mag with no problem. Pretty trickey.

Harley,

The .458 Lott is now loaded comercially by Hornandy. I hand load, and it is by far the easiest cheapest heavy on the planet to load for.

Quote:

That 470 NE must really give you a whollup too. Pretty light looking. Do you have rate reducers in your gun stocks? Lots of pads and cushions???

Quote:

That .470NE weighs in at about 10 lbs. It is not bad to shoot at all. In fact it's sweeter shooting than a hot loaded .45-70. These big Nitro rounds are very low pressure. I'd not consider putting recoil reducers or breaks or anything of that sort on a rifle. I do install 1.5" kick eze pads.

Recoil is mostly a physcological barrier that with time and training can be overcome without any undue affects on your shooting.

I can and do shoot double clovers left barrel right barrel offhand with that rifle at 50 yards all the time and I am also a competitive bigbore double gun shooter.

Recoil is not a big deal if you deal with it properly.

I was surprised at how sweet the 45-70s were to shoot, easy to point etc.
I am looking for a Browning 358 lever as I write. I believe it would be a great shooter.
Load it up with some heavies and you can also load up some lightweights at over 3000 fps for rabbits and varmits same gun same feel, just switch the mags. Heck you could even load up those triple 50grain rounds, I think it would be a winner. Any ideas???

I have a M-70 pre 64 featherweight in .358win and use it quite a bit out on the ranch. That round/ rifle combo may well be the very best light weight carry gun/ hog stomper ever built.

The .358 is devestating on hogs. I shoot 225gr barnes TSX or Nosler BT also at 225 grs. That little round is absoloute vodoo on hogs, it is just the right medicine without to much fan fare in a light weight easy to shoot package. I am a BIG fan of the .358Win!

There was a really sweet looking Savage M-99 in .358 for sale on Guns America www.gunsamerica.com about two weeks ago. I'd try and find one of those over a BLR. The savage is a fine weapon it is a CRF and just has the cool factor all over a BLR.

I find the BLR's to be flashy and trashy and they have a M-700 plunger spring extractor which leaves me a bit cold.

HOWEVER the BLR is not a bad rifle if you can't find a Savage.

OH YEAH, I meant to throw in on the last post. Porcupine quills are not airtight and they do not expand when warm. Cutting off the tops to "deflate" them is an old wives tale and does nothing more than add to the pain of the dog by manipulating the quill more than you have to.

The reason that the quills stick is because they have little barbs on them. Just pull the darn things out as quick as you can and get it overwith. Trust me on this guys and if you don't trust me on this ask your vet. We've pulled thousands and thousands of quills out of dogs at the clinic. THEY ARE NOT PRESSUREIZED!

Maddog however, may well be.

Harley Quinn · October 31, 2005, 11:35 AM

I feel the same about the 358 win. I have called around and talked to a couple of gun shops since I got back. One fellow mentioned the Savage 99 no detach mag though. The Winchester mdl 88 has a detachable mag.
I will check around. One gun shop owner in town was not even familiar with the gun or the round??? Said he has never seen one and 'would really have a tough time finding the BLR'. I had one in 308 and foolishly sold it 20 years ago.

A gun shop where I shoot in the indoor range with hand guns,shotguns and the 30 Carbine, when talking to him he stated the BLR is made on special order now. I was really surprised with that one, I'll look for a used one.

The 'Cow Palace' In San Francisco (shudder) is having a huge gun show pretty soon I will go over to it and check around.
Reno is having one also in the next few weeks. Since I live in the Sacramento area it is not that bad of drive.

Really strange the biggest gun show the whole year up in Northern California is in the biggest town in the whole USofA that want to take our guns. But since they make money from the show it is OK...LOL.

Smoke as much Marijuana as you like, but don't own a gun for protection in a crime ridden country... What a joke... :barf:

I have a couple of levers in 30-30 I need to practice what Ashley was showing me when we went shooting at twigs and rocks and such. The Guy is like a semi-auto with those shooters. If he was shooting we would have brought back much more bacon on the trip, but he was guide and driver and instructor, It was a very informative trip for me.

I talked to him Tuesday eve, asked if he would do some work on a couple of my shooter's said he was pretty busy but to give him a call...I'll do that soon.

I got the picture's thanks Rich. (Again, I had a great time and please give Miko a pat on the head for me). I am going over to the other computer soon and check um out...

Regarding the quills what you are saying is what we found out, grab um close and get um out as fast as possible. Ashley's petite frame was holding Miko down and I do mean down, head on the ground and all that. The nose bleed much more then the rest of the area (lips inside and out, roof of mouth) It went pretty good I thought.

Regards, Harley

buzz meeks · October 31, 2005, 09:42 PM

Thanks to everyone for relating what sounds like a great hunt. I've spent my whole life in the extreme northern tier of states and have just never had the chance to hunt hogs but one of these days I will. Just wondering, what exactly does constitute a proper hog handgun under the circumstances Harley encountered? What's a sensible minimum and what is "just right"?

Long Path · October 31, 2005, 10:21 PM

Strange but true: I've NEVER come across a porcupine while hunting. Lucky me, I guess. (I've found them while hiking and driving, though.)

Well, some of us can't have the good fortune Greg had in finding his featherweight .358 Win, so we use Springfields in .35 Whelen. Same concept, longer action.

(Note: hogs likely know no difference)

Returning to the topic at hand (remember that?), let's take stock in some conclusions:

1. Can a handgun be a good all-around hog-hunting gun?
In my opinion, NO, except for rare exceptions like the most enormous magnums and handguns chambered in rifle rounds. There are simply too many types of shots that present themselves in various forms of hog hunting.

2. Are the .45 acp (remember the original thread?) and/or the 9mm adequate rounds for hog hunting?
(Again in my opinion) NO. While there are shots, with stand hunting over bait or water, in which a hunter might press these inadequate rounds into effective service against hogs, it is a stunt. (I know of one case where a hunter had to press a .25 auto into service to put down a buck that had "woke up" as he transported it back from the hunting field. While it did the job, I would not say that a .25 acp is an effective deer cartridge!) Where shots on moving animals are the norm, penetration and power must make up for some loss of precision.

3. Is there a way to stoke up a 9mm to give the hunter the edge?
Sure. Get a shoehorn and fit a .358 Winchester into a 9X19 chamber. It'll be a tad overbore (.358 in a .355 bore), which might cause some pressure problems...

In all seriousness, I don't think that trying to up the energy is the way to go when pushing minor caliber into a tough animal-- I think penetration is. Thus, rather than a +P+ light bullet, I would either go with the heaviest bullet available for the higher sectional density, or go to FMJ. Or both! In golf there's a turn of phrase that goes "never up, never in." The concept is, the most perfectly placed shot does no good if it doesn't have the punch to make the vitals.

--------

Disclosure: The only hog I ever shot with a pistol was in a coup de grace for a 200 lb sow that had just had her back broken by a charge of 000 buck from a friend's 12ga magnum. It was raining, and he was having trouble getting his light working and I think had some kind of problems racking his gun, and I moved up quickly with my Kimber 1911 to put the squealing sow down. In the dark murky rain with black sights and wet glasses and a dim AA flashlight in my teeth, I shot the hog in the vicinity of the head with a .230g Gold Dot. She squealed louder. I double-tapped her high in the front of the shoulder area. No joy; she kept drawing breath. Finally, from the sharpshooting range of perhaps 6 feet, I sighted on the back of her ear and put her lights out. I was amazed at how little effect the previous 3 shots had given at ending the poor beast. Every bullet passed through, with minor damage beyond the wound track. Some expansion had occured, evidenced by the loss of tissue at the exit. But until I hit the CNS, she was not down.

H&H,hunter · November 1, 2005, 02:46 PM

Long Path,

That has been my experience exactly. Even a .44 mag has little visible affect on hogs unless you break bone and are using a super good bullet.

A .44 mag will however get the job done in almost any circumstance with a good heavy hard cast bullet.

This a a good starting point for hog hunting with a pistol. (

Yes the .41 mag does ok as well.)

But none of them afford you the ability to reliably kill hogs from normal hunting situations even most of the time.

Fremmer · November 1, 2005, 07:30 PM

Wow. Those hogs are huge!!!

On another thread (I think it was about shootin' an emu), I think I posted a sarcastic comment about my .308 being insufficient for hog huntin'. I am now attempting to remove my size 14 foot from my mouth.

I've learned a lot from this thread (no wild hogs in Nebraska -- yet), and the big-bore/magnum advocates for hog hunting are certainly making me reconsider whether the .308 would be enough for those hogzillas!

H&H,hunter · November 1, 2005, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Wow. Those hogs are huge!!!

Fremmer,

Nah.. Those hogs are pretty average.

These hogs are tickling large.

Anybody want to try and jump shoot these little piggies with a poodle shooter?

I can tell you from first hand experience that it doesn't always work out too well.

That pig in the top picture I killed with a .308 win and 180gr Federal HE NPT.
Hit him behind the on shoulder and the bullet stopped in the off shoulder.
The hog ran about 100 or so yards before going down. These old boars are tanks!

That first hog had a healed over bullet wound in his shield it was what looked like a .243 round that had completley broken up on the cartlidge and left a divit. But obviously the hog was no worse for the wear.

ahenry · November 11, 2005, 07:13 AM

Great thread/story/pictures.

Quote:

When I stopped by the visitor center later on Monday I was talking to the Lady who was there. She explained hogs are ruining the land, I hope you killed some? I said, yes we did.

On our place down here in south Texas, we have seen a sharp increase in the number of hogs and a sharp decrease in the number of quail. I can’t say for certain that the greater number of hogs has caused the lower number of quail, although I do know hogs are more than happy to devour quail eggs, it’s just my little pet theory. A theory that I am going to attempt to prove or disprove by dispatching as many of those D*&^ hogs as I can.

Harley Quinn · November 11, 2005, 12:04 PM

They are very destructive of everyother living thing from roots to quail. They will devour a dead hog before you can find it. If hot on the trail maybe not, but I have read some stories about hunters coming on to the one they shot and hogs eating it.

I believe they are a great advisary, with the proper rifle you protect yourself more, but if you are in it for sport, and some high adventure go with the smaller caliber while you are stalking, then it is more of a challenge to see if you have the stomach for it...

Just my thoughts. Guess that is why my wife does not sleep well while I am on these sort of things. When I was younger and bow hunted these dudes I felt that it was the way to go. Now I prefer a pistol with me. I still like the idea of shooting from a far if that is the only shot you get.

But in my opinion the hunt and stalk is the main attraction. And of course the comraderie that goes along with it, or not..LOL

All in the name of that game, we call life...

Harley

12-34hom · November 11, 2005, 02:18 PM

Now that looks like fun!

10mm + DT's 200grain XTP loads - sure like to give it a go.

12-34hom.

October 29, 2005, 08:55 PM	#51
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	I gotta tell ya Long Path. After reading your post, and then reading Rich's menu for the hunt, it's a wonder you TFL guys don't have Dunlap's Disease. You know, where it's "dun lapped" over your belts. Now I gotta get back to my Wendy's hamburger. __________________ TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does *your* post make *you?* I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie

October 29, 2005, 09:15 PM	#52
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Bullet and confidence Hi, I still have plenty of confidence in the 9mm, placement is the key. I am a petite 234.5 lbs, really...No dunlap on me. The +p+ is really a law enforcement round. I had numerous bullets to choose from, that day I was loaded up with +p+. I should have let fly the day Miko got the piglet. Quite a few were of the right size and running across in front of us, but I did not shoot the pistol and had a quick hiccup in the getalong. To Cold, to much clothing, rifle was handy and the pistol was tucked away as a back up and I went for the 45-70. Harley

October 30, 2005, 01:06 PM	#54
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	H & H and others. I agree with what you are saying 100% In a stalking situation and closer shooting I think some of the big hand guns are ok (such as what Ashley carries). But the way we were hunting the terrain and seeing what I saw and did, I believe the 45-70 is the premiere shooter, levers rule this roost. I took along a Gamemaster in 06 and never even broke it out. I was allowed to borrow a 45-70 and it rode nicely in the rack most of the time. I was sighting in on a rock we had placed in the road and used numerous different loads. The power to rock and what was done on impact led me to believe (ashley also) that the +p+ was the best bet with the 9mm. I walked a draw and saw so much sign, walked in the trails an thru the creek and was figuring I would get one of them 'critters' but not to happen. First day out with Ashley I just about had the perfect shot but in one split second the huge Sow made a fast right turn behind a bush and that was it. Ashley gave me loads of information I asked him lots and lots of questions. I felt very confident under all the conditions just having talked to him and getting the right scoop. The size of that boar was a real treat, Rich could have taken the shot but the arrangement was for me to shoot and I did 3 times, then the shot was taken by Rich a milisecond late and that is how it happened. We can second guess ourselves and hindsight is 20/20, but it went down, I had a great time. I saw more pig on that hunt then most do in a life time of hunting. The caper with Miko was worth the whole trip alone. Miko is going to be one great dog some day, great pup, just 8 months, doing what he did was a joy to participate in. The quills he took to the face were unbelievable and when we got them out, Rich cleaned him up with a disinfectant and off he went, never missing a beat on trying to get scent and track. LOL Reminded me of a German Shorthair I had back in the 60s and early 70s. She was never the same after getting bit by a huge rattler, but then age takes it toll on dogs as well as us humans. Rich lost a dog in the same area to a snake bite a few weeks before, (I was told). I was glad to see the temperature drop a little considering the amount of brush I crawled thru. Never saw a snake the whole trip. When I got back my wife had found a good web site about the Tejon ranch in CA and the amount of hogs taken there each year. I think I will give it ago, soon... DIFFERENT GUN OF COURSE for primary, my pistola will be a 44 mag Blackhawk Harley

October 30, 2005, 02:32 PM	#56
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Rich __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

October 30, 2005, 03:50 PM	#57
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	H&H I am very hard of hearing, guess I misunderstood. Hi, I heard the conversation (LOL yea right)... Ashley told me that I was about as deaf or deafer then Bill Jordan...LOL Rich can throw in his oar on this one I was having a tough time and we discussed that, but I am very hard of hearing and I was not wearing my Hearing Aids. I did wear a set of hearing protectors that helped the hearing and the noise. I picked them up on my way through Amarillo when I got my 5 day lic. at the local Wal Mart right off of 40/287 area. I picked it up at 0 dark thirty, and continued on to Paduca to meet Ashley at the Texaco station. So more then likly I just misunderstood. I am sorry for your loss, Good luck with your new one. What make and model was your amigo? I like those doubles what round were they in? That is a nice spear, is that made by Cold Steel? I saw most of these pictures in Ashley's album...Nice... Harley

October 30, 2005, 04:32 PM	#58
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	What Kind Of Snakes? What species of venomous snakes do you have down there? Vets now have a rattlesnake vaccination for dogs. The dog is given a series of shots. This builds up venom anitbodies and theoritcally the dog is immune from snake venom. Sorry about your dog.

October 30, 2005, 04:41 PM	#59
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	Very sorry for your loss Greg. Damn, but they can come to mean as much as family! March before last I had to have my 17 yr old German Shepherd put down. I was one miserable SOB to be around for awhile, so I know what you mean. Hopefully, you'll find a good hunter and companion to fill the void soon. __________________ TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does *your* post make *you?* I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie

October 30, 2005, 04:47 PM	#60
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	roy reali I could jump in on that, but I wouldn't want to "hog" the thread . Anyhow, there was a discussion on hunting dogs and snakebite with info back in July, I believe. Here's the link to that thread: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=175059 __________________ TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does *your* post make *you?* I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie

October 30, 2005, 05:01 PM	#61
Holman Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 283	H&H Hunter Sorry about the loss of your good friend, Is he a German Hunt Terrier? Those are very brave dogs. They are like Dynamite! small with a big booom! __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome." Holman

October 30, 2005, 05:15 PM	#62
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Roy- The vaccination is specific to Western Diamondbacks, though there is some evidence that cross protection against the Eastern variety also exists. Kubi was hit in the neck by a large Western Diamonback....questionable if anything would have helped, small as he was. Miko has had the vaccination, but it does not provide immunity; it only lessens the severity. Rich __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

October 30, 2005, 06:02 PM	#63
H&H,hunter Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 504	Holman, Yes Kubi was a German hunting terrier. Harley, The double is a .470 NE built by Butch Searcy of Ca. The spear is a cold steel asengi. My wife is a Vet I had her do a post mortem on Kubi because I wanted to know if there was anything else I could have done to save him. Kubi was bitten through the carotid artery and into the trachia. If I would have been standing there with a double bolace of anti-venom and administered it on the spot, he would have still died. The venom, a massive dose, was mainlined to the heart, lungs, and brain. Kubi got hit with the golden B.B. of a snake bite. We've since done some intensive reasearch on snake bites and survivability. There is no I repeat NO increase in survivability in dogs who've recieved anti venom VS dogs who didn't. My wife is pretty sceptical on the usefullness of the new vacination. It really boils down to two factors, where the dog was bit and how much venom was injected. If the dog gets a fatal dose in the right spot he's going to die. If he doesn't he's going to live. I'm afraid it's really that simple. Thank you all for your kind words. They mean a lot to me. __________________ Velocity is thrilling, But diameter does the real killing.

October 30, 2005, 11:56 PM	#64
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	H&H,hunter I commend your deligence regarding the post work up on rattlesnake venom and the destruction it can cause. Sometimes due to unforseen events things just go awry. It is that simple, and it is also appropriate regarding lifes ups and downs. No master orchestrater, just chance, be it good or bad... Snake venom is one nasty item, I wonder if you atomized it and used it like a vaporous gas, how deadly it would be? Someone, somewhere has probably the information on it right now. That 458 Lott is a good choice, if you don't have the handloads (does someone load that? Maybe A square) I figure you have all the answers to that one. I understand it can shoot the 458 Win Mag with no problem. Pretty trickey. I will have to look into that and maybe have my 458 rechambered (reamed). I have a 1917 action with a bull barrel 458 on the end of it, weighs 19 pounds...LOL shoots sweet. Good for arm curls and early morning workouts to keep you in shape... That 470 NE must really give you a whollup too. Pretty light looking. Do you have rate reducers in your gun stocks? Lots of pads and cushions??? I was reading a book by the 'Late and Great Jack Oconnor' about flinching with the big guns and why you should shoot something that is comfortable. He was saying most shooters flinch (he did) and that is the reason for that miss that under most circumstances would have been a hit or the 'yank' rather than the squeeze. Interesting way he put the feeling about most of the gun owners and how they never flinch. Right LOL... The stress flinch is another one he was talking about. He feels that if you will actually admit it and work on it you can overcome it easily. Considered the surprise shot the way to do it, hold and squeeze and when it goes off it is a surprise. One of the reasons he really liked the 270 as he got older (he knew the limitations of the round) was an easy shooter and he had complete confidence in the round, placement is the key. His opinion also. I was surprised at how sweet the 45-70s were to shoot, easy to point etc. I am looking for a Browning 358 lever as I write. I believe it would be a great shooter. Load it up with some heavies and you can also load up some lightweights at over 3000 fps for rabbits and varmits same gun same feel, just switch the mags. Heck you could even load up those triple 50grain rounds, I think it would be a winner. Any ideas??? Those are some great pictures, thanks for sharing... Harley

October 31, 2005, 08:39 AM	#65
Quickdraw Limpsalot Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2004 Location: Rural Kentucky Posts: 478	Just wanted to jump in here and say that this thread has been a GREAT read, through all the twists and turns.

October 31, 2005, 11:35 AM	#67
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	H&H,hunter Good solid information. Thanks I feel the same about the 358 win. I have called around and talked to a couple of gun shops since I got back. One fellow mentioned the Savage 99 no detach mag though. The Winchester mdl 88 has a detachable mag. I will check around. One gun shop owner in town was not even familiar with the gun or the round??? Said he has never seen one and 'would really have a tough time finding the BLR'. I had one in 308 and foolishly sold it 20 years ago. A gun shop where I shoot in the indoor range with hand guns,shotguns and the 30 Carbine, when talking to him he stated the BLR is made on special order now. I was really surprised with that one, I'll look for a used one. The 'Cow Palace' In San Francisco (shudder) is having a huge gun show pretty soon I will go over to it and check around. Reno is having one also in the next few weeks. Since I live in the Sacramento area it is not that bad of drive. Really strange the biggest gun show the whole year up in Northern California is in the biggest town in the whole USofA that want to take our guns. But since they make money from the show it is OK...LOL. Smoke as much Marijuana as you like, but don't own a gun for protection in a crime ridden country... What a joke... :barf: I have a couple of levers in 30-30 I need to practice what Ashley was showing me when we went shooting at twigs and rocks and such. The Guy is like a semi-auto with those shooters. If he was shooting we would have brought back much more bacon on the trip, but he was guide and driver and instructor, It was a very informative trip for me. I talked to him Tuesday eve, asked if he would do some work on a couple of my shooter's said he was pretty busy but to give him a call...I'll do that soon. I got the picture's thanks Rich. (Again, I had a great time and please give Miko a pat on the head for me). I am going over to the other computer soon and check um out... Regarding the quills what you are saying is what we found out, grab um close and get um out as fast as possible. Ashley's petite frame was holding Miko down and I do mean down, head on the ground and all that. The nose bleed much more then the rest of the area (lips inside and out, roof of mouth) It went pretty good I thought. Regards, Harley

October 31, 2005, 09:42 PM	#68
buzz meeks Member Join Date: September 22, 2004 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 42	Thanks to everyone for relating what sounds like a great hunt. I've spent my whole life in the extreme northern tier of states and have just never had the chance to hunt hogs but one of these days I will. Just wondering, what exactly does constitute a proper hog handgun under the circumstances Harley encountered? What's a sensible minimum and what is "just right"?

October 31, 2005, 10:21 PM	#69
Long Path Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,899	Strange but true: I've NEVER come across a porcupine while hunting. Lucky me, I guess. (I've found them while hiking and driving, though.) Well, some of us can't have the good fortune Greg had in finding his featherweight .358 Win, so we use Springfields in .35 Whelen. Same concept, longer action. (Note: hogs likely know no difference) Returning to the topic at hand (remember that?), let's take stock in some conclusions: 1. Can a handgun be a good all-around hog-hunting gun? In my opinion, NO, except for rare exceptions like the most enormous magnums and handguns chambered in rifle rounds. There are simply too many types of shots that present themselves in various forms of hog hunting. 2. Are the .45 acp (remember the original thread?) and/or the 9mm adequate rounds for hog hunting? (Again in my opinion) NO. While there are shots, with stand hunting over bait or water, in which a hunter might press these inadequate rounds into effective service against hogs, it is a stunt. (I know of one case where a hunter had to press a .25 auto into service to put down a buck that had "woke up" as he transported it back from the hunting field. While it did the job, I would not say that a .25 acp is an effective deer cartridge!) Where shots on moving animals are the norm, penetration and power must make up for some loss of precision. 3. Is there a way to stoke up a 9mm to give the hunter the edge? Sure. Get a shoehorn and fit a .358 Winchester into a 9X19 chamber. It'll be a tad overbore (.358 in a .355 bore), which might cause some pressure problems... In all seriousness, I don't think that trying to up the energy is the way to go when pushing minor caliber into a tough animal-- I think penetration is. Thus, rather than a +P+ light bullet, I would either go with the heaviest bullet available for the higher sectional density, or go to FMJ. Or both! In golf there's a turn of phrase that goes "never up, never in." The concept is, the most perfectly placed shot does no good if it doesn't have the punch to make the vitals. -------- Disclosure: The only hog I ever shot with a pistol was in a coup de grace for a 200 lb sow that had just had her back broken by a charge of 000 buck from a friend's 12ga magnum. It was raining, and he was having trouble getting his light working and I think had some kind of problems racking his gun, and I moved up quickly with my Kimber 1911 to put the squealing sow down. In the dark murky rain with black sights and wet glasses and a dim AA flashlight in my teeth, I shot the hog in the vicinity of the head with a .230g Gold Dot. She squealed louder. I double-tapped her high in the front of the shoulder area. No joy; she kept drawing breath. Finally, from the sharpshooting range of perhaps 6 feet, I sighted on the back of her ear and put her lights out. I was amazed at how little effect the previous 3 shots had given at ending the poor beast. Every bullet passed through, with minor damage beyond the wound track. Some expansion had occured, evidenced by the loss of tissue at the exit. But until I hit the CNS, she was not down. __________________ "Welcome to The Firing Line, a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership."T.F.L. Policy Page Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap? ____________

November 1, 2005, 02:46 PM	#70
H&H,hunter Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 504	Long Path, That has been my experience exactly. Even a .44 mag has little visible affect on hogs unless you break bone and are using a super good bullet. A .44 mag will however get the job done in almost any circumstance with a good heavy hard cast bullet. This a a good starting point for hog hunting with a pistol. ( Yes the .41 mag does ok as well.) But none of them afford you the ability to reliably kill hogs from normal hunting situations even most of the time. __________________ Velocity is thrilling, But diameter does the real killing.

November 1, 2005, 07:30 PM	#71
Fremmer Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 3,482	Wow. Those hogs are huge!!! On another thread (I think it was about shootin' an emu), I think I posted a sarcastic comment about my .308 being insufficient for hog huntin'. I am now attempting to remove my size 14 foot from my mouth. I've learned a lot from this thread (no wild hogs in Nebraska -- yet), and the big-bore/magnum advocates for hog hunting are certainly making me reconsider whether the .308 would be enough for those hogzillas!

November 11, 2005, 12:04 PM	#74
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	ahenry, You are right. They are very destructive of everyother living thing from roots to quail. They will devour a dead hog before you can find it. If hot on the trail maybe not, but I have read some stories about hunters coming on to the one they shot and hogs eating it. I believe they are a great advisary, with the proper rifle you protect yourself more, but if you are in it for sport, and some high adventure go with the smaller caliber while you are stalking, then it is more of a challenge to see if you have the stomach for it... Just my thoughts. Guess that is why my wife does not sleep well while I am on these sort of things. When I was younger and bow hunted these dudes I felt that it was the way to go. Now I prefer a pistol with me. I still like the idea of shooting from a far if that is the only shot you get. But in my opinion the hunt and stalk is the main attraction. And of course the comraderie that goes along with it, or not..LOL All in the name of that game, we call life... Harley

November 11, 2005, 02:18 PM	#75
12-34hom Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 1999 Location: Iowa - northeastern Posts: 1,810	Not enough gun.... Now that looks like fun! 10mm + DT's 200grain XTP loads - sure like to give it a go. 12-34hom. __________________ This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. I must master itas i master my life.Without me my rifle is useless, without my rifle i am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I Will. Before God i swear this creed. My rifle and myself are defenders of my country. We are masters of our enemy. We are saviours of my life. So be it until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.