March 8, 2011, 05:30 PM | #26 | ||
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,059
|
Quote:
I'd lay odds that Lone Wolf is going to end up being the scapegoat in this whole thing to some extent. In other news, Quote:
I really don't want to go off bashing the ATF out of hand. The guys in my field division are a good bunch, and they're working hard to do good and preserve credibility. But the guys in the Phoenix division are obviously pretty far off the reservation.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
||
March 8, 2011, 06:33 PM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 17, 2007
Location: Cowtown of course!
Posts: 1,747
|
I'm not so sure it's the guys in the field office that headed off the reservation. The reads more like they were directed off by what would be called "competent authority".
The "competent" part is what I question. And as a general rule, I don't bash the BATFE either. But one has to question what going on when ops like this appear.
__________________
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearms Safety, Pistol and Rifle Instructor “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life......” President John F. Kennedy |
March 8, 2011, 06:34 PM | #28 | |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
Quote:
|
|
March 8, 2011, 08:27 PM | #29 |
Member
Join Date: March 7, 2011
Posts: 34
|
If its any indicator, when I renewed my FFL in 08, as part of directive from the Philly ATF, they wanted to do an on premise inspection of any dealer renewing their license.
Some 6 months or so later, operating under a LOC, I was finally inspected, looking at the last years 4473's, for errors, etc. This past Month, I renewed, had my new license in about two weeks, with no mention, nor hide nor hair of any inspection. So it appears at least in this area, the budget isn't allowing renewal inspections, etc, of existing licensees. Cooperating with the ATF is one thing, being part of a 100 plus firearm sales sting, with some bad folks, is not what I would consider simple cooperation, you are an integral part of the entire sting, in fact, probably the MOST important part. You are acting as an informant basically, and a salesman, and if it was in the drug world, you would be selling the drugs, instead of "Just" a firearm. Not to mention time spent during the stings, what about time spent in court, if you are needed to testify? There could be a lot of pro bono work on your part just for wanting to be a "Good guy". If I wanted to be part of the criminal justice system, I would have gone to college for it. Just look at the liability, on the face of it right now, the shop ID'd with providing the guns that killed the agent, MUST be expecting a civil suit from the survivors. I sure as hell would be. And lets face it, if this all comes tumbling down, with the agents trying to save their own butts, how much assistance do you think is going to be given to people outside the agency? Without being rude, having lived through the Clinton years, where I was treated poorly by the ATF, just for being an FFL holder, they wanted all of us shut down, if they could justify it, I hold no great fondness for them now. Would I help them, of course, but to a degree, and what they asked of these businesses in AZ and Texas goes far beyond what an FFL should ever be asked to do. |
March 8, 2011, 09:42 PM | #30 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 21, 2000
Location: Minnesota, Twin Cities
Posts: 1,076
|
Frick74:
Quote:
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams. |
|
March 8, 2011, 09:54 PM | #31 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,660
|
It's my understanding that the Mexican Ministry of Foreign Affairs directed its inquiry to the US Dept. of State.
While I really don't want to get into the politics of this, you just have to be thinking if Hillary will jump ship and throw the Obama Administration under the bus, for a sure shot at 2012. As far as that affidavit I mentioned, yes, I was wrong in reading it the exact way I did. But you have to wonder why out of the blue, the affidavit mentions that the same traffickers were able to move the same make gun (Draco) that was involved in the Zapata murder. Prior movement? Why is that information even germane to the affidavit? Why did the ATF allow known traffickers to continue to "walk" the guns? |
March 8, 2011, 09:59 PM | #32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 3,963
|
We're all supposed to be law-abiding gun owners and licensees.....no one has any business aiding and abetting some lawless political scheme, immunity or not, that results in trafficking arms to criminals. The parties to the scheme should have to literally steal the arms in order to further their goals, whatever they are. Let 'em get caught doing that, even the jackleg media can't ignore it.
|
March 8, 2011, 10:05 PM | #33 |
Member
Join Date: December 30, 2008
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 21
|
CBS ran an update on "Gunwalker" tonite. Looks like ATF may have a problem seeing they've tracked this deal back to 2007 now. The ATF tried to flood the news with positive spin after CBS ran this a couple of weeks ago hoping it would die of neglect but just like Jack in the "Shining".....it's back!
__________________
Mac USAF Lifer NRA Lifer |
March 8, 2011, 10:06 PM | #34 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 21, 2000
Location: Minnesota, Twin Cities
Posts: 1,076
|
kilimanjaro:
Quote:
I'm encouraged to see multiple media outlets, including CBS and the LA Times covering this. When you get the anti-gun/pro-gun-control media beating up a big government agency in charge of gun control, you know the excrement is hitting the rotating air movement device. I wouldn't mind seeing this go right to Eric Holder and seeing that wimpy little AG taken down, maybe even tossed into the federal pen. He's a big time gun banner. I don't take kindly to people who want to take away my civil rights which he's supposed to protect according the the 2nd A.
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams. |
|
March 8, 2011, 10:11 PM | #35 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 21, 2000
Location: Minnesota, Twin Cities
Posts: 1,076
|
Mac11:
Quote:
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams. |
|
March 8, 2011, 10:21 PM | #36 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,660
|
I know that David Codrea has been wondering how long (and what) it will take to get the MSM to acknowledge this thing. It's now appearing that the media is waking up... Except perhaps the most influential newspaper of them all - The Washington Post. They appear to be dead, in respect to this story.
|
March 8, 2011, 11:38 PM | #37 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 29, 2010
Posts: 316
|
Quote:
|
|
March 9, 2011, 02:49 AM | #38 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,059
|
Quote:
Until a couple of weeks ago, the only evidence was hearsay. Heck, I initially wrote it off as wishful alarmism. Now that it's concrete, things will likely accelerate.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
|
March 9, 2011, 08:33 AM | #39 | |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
Quote:
I don't know if the WaPo's journalistic integrity has been compromised by this; but I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that the WaPo doesn't want to press too hard on the Administration when the part of its business that brings in 58% of the revenue is on the table. |
|
March 9, 2011, 11:26 AM | #40 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,059
|
CBS has found that this practice has been going on since at least 2008. Back then, it was called "Wide Receiver."
From another indictment dated 12/08: Quote:
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
|
March 9, 2011, 03:02 PM | #41 |
Member
Join Date: March 7, 2011
Posts: 34
|
I wonder how long they would allow full auto Chinese AK's and grenades, bought in Mexico to go wandering around in our country if we had groups of narco traffickers killing US citizens.
Seems to me, that we are allowing Mexican citizens to die, in an effort to charge a few bad guys with as many counts of lying on a 4473 as possible. Once you get the first SUV load of 30 rifles, all bought by one person, going over the border, seems the case is pretty well made to me. Also, I love how the least harmful drug, but the most profitable one, seems to be the currency used to fund all these purchases. Makes a great case to legalize cannabis, once and for all, and take away the main money stream for the cartels. If you didn't have to watch for the TONS of weed coming in, it would make the search for heroin, cocaine, and meth a hell of alot easier. |
March 9, 2011, 08:09 PM | #42 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,660
|
The topic is ATF gunrunning. Drugs and drug trafficking are peripheral issues. Let's keep them there.
Grassley wants the current DOJ appointed IG to recuse herself and wants an independent IG to investigate. Sends letter to Kevin Perkins, Chairman of the Integrity Committee: http://grassley.senate.gov/about/upl...m-ATF-case.pdf Foxnews had front page coverage earlier today. Now at: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/09...candal-border/ Grassley questions DHS Sec. Napolitano: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...html?tag=stack |
March 9, 2011, 09:25 PM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 29, 2010
Posts: 316
|
I just don't get the logic of the whole sting. Let the guns walk in hopes of nabbing someone higher up, but the higher ups are all in Mexico where the ATF has no jurisdiction.
There has to be a more devious explanation because the logic of their sting just doesn't pan out. |
March 9, 2011, 10:53 PM | #44 | ||
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,059
|
Quote:
Quote:
USA Today has also picked up on the story. I'm not sure if there's a causal relationship, but the ATF's request for emergency funding to track multiple sales of long guns in border states has been denied.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
||
March 10, 2011, 12:10 AM | #45 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 9,142
|
A side issue that may never be addressed . . .
The Washington Post article mentioned:
Quote:
The latter assertion is now demonstrably false. A side issue is whether AAG Weich was aware of Project Gunrunner when he made this assertion. Some members here will remember that one of the charges against Oliver North was lying to Congress, though not under oath. |
|
March 10, 2011, 02:38 AM | #46 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 11, 1999
Location: Longmont, CO, USA
Posts: 4,530
|
Quote:
SOURCE Quote:
__________________
Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
||
March 10, 2011, 10:01 AM | #47 | |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
Quote:
And as usualy, WaPo carries water for the ATF: "many gunrunning cases end with little more than paperwork violations against buyers who procure guns for others. Such so-called straw purchaser cases rarely amount to more than charges of lying on federal documents." Last time I looked, that was a crime that could land you up to TEN YEARS in a federal prison. That isn't exactly a walk in the park. If 10 years in a federal prison isn't deterrent enough, then what is? And all you have to prove is that the guy lied on the paperwork. Way to unconditionally whitewash the story WaPo. Plus as KyJim notes, Weich's statement is clearly false. They have video of the ATF watching these guys buy the weapons and drive off. They have logs showing the date and time the weapons crossed into Mexico. If ATF didn't allow the sales of weapons to a straw purchaser who took them into Mexico, then how did that happen? |
|
March 10, 2011, 12:26 PM | #48 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,059
|
According to a letter [pdf] sent to Attorney General Holder from 13 members of the Judiciary committee:
Quote:
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
|
March 10, 2011, 02:16 PM | #49 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 9,142
|
Quote:
Quote:
Basically, the review is stating that from Mexico's viewpoint, Project Gunrunner and the trace of firearms seized in Mexico is a waste of time! That certainly shoots a lot of holes into positions taken by the mainstream media and certain segments of our political leadership. |
||
March 11, 2011, 04:31 PM | #50 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
This should be interesting... apparently at least one Mexican politician is announcing he will ask the United States to extradite the ATF agents responsible for Fast and Furious to Mexico to stand charges:
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogsp...-declared.html |
Tags |
atf , fast and furious |
|
|