Body Armor and Bad Guys

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

My understanding is that Mr. Wilson was firing at the shooter from across the bed of a parked half-ton pickup truck.

From what I have heard from those I trust, his shots connected COM. The actual number of shots he fired, to my best information, is still under investigation but is believed to be two in number. From his position, he could not see the lower 2/3 of the shooter's body at the time he fired.

A Warrior is down. May we always remember him.



Regards,
Rabbit.

[NSO_w/_SIG]

In this case one of those smaller calibers you talk about trashing would of stood a better shot. The BG was wearing a ballistic vest and another piece of body armor. Not saying that a smaller caliber would of taken the guy out in this case but a larger caliber sure isn't going to penetrate the armor better. Only chance Wilson stood was if he had the prescence of mind and or the time to shoot to the head or groin. Any handgun would have been useless in penetrating the level or armor the guy was weaing.

[too many choices!?]

Seeing as how the letter of the law considers it a hand gun by definiton, I think it would have been perfect for this situation with a red dot..... Then those COM hits magically change to stoppers(or at the very least a much better attention getter at 2400-26oo fps!) Lastly, 30 rounds of .223 would beat any handgun round available(minus the 5.7 but lets not go there) in this situation in all aspects; penetration of vest, stopping power, less chance of errant rounds doing collateral damage, and better wounding(read as: fatal) potential.....55gr ball is the only way to go....An ar-15 pistol with red dot could have ended this in one shot at anything less than 70yds (given an open shot and not receiving fire that is)... Hero any way you wanna slice the pie.....too bad the liberal media will never let Americans know that there are still REAL heroes !

[jburtonpdx]

Thank you, Mark Alan Wilson, for standing up and fighting. Thank you to the son for surviving. Thank you to the LEO for doing your job.

I believe that if faced with a situation I will fight. The way I choose to do that may not seem apropriate to some. In this situation, I would seek cover and stand guard for those near me. I do not think I would be aggressive towards the long gun, just does not add up for me.

As far as using a long gun myself to fight the BG, I dont think it to be a good idea. LEO is going to be responding in large numbers to this situation. They are getting a call that BG has a rifle and is shooting people. If I am holding a rifle and firing, I am likely to become the target - in fact Murphys law says that I am going to be the first one they see.

God be with the families of those involved and with the witnesses to this tragedy. Comfort and give them peace in the sea of horror they are floating in, bring them safely to shore.

[Jungle Work]

Many people in this country do not understand that it is better to live one second as a hero than a thousand years as a coward.

Jungle Work

[JohnKSa]

Heroes don't have to perform perfectly or "win" to be heroes. Mr. Wilson did not "win" but he did save lives. I wish he had won as well, but that's not how it worked out.

If we learn from the situation, we make what he did even more worthwhile.

[BillCA]

Perhaps this is one case where the potent little 7.62x25mm Tokarev ctg would have had some advantage.

I'd say that it's likely Mr. Wilson saw the threat, believed he had the element of surprise when he fired, but did not recognize or notice the body armor. From my perspective, against a rifle-armed shooter, I'm not revealing my presence unless its either necessary or I think I have the element of surprise and a high likelihood of making a solid hit.

[Double Naught Spy]

Many people in this country do not understand that it is better to live one second as a hero than a thousand years as a coward.

Jungle Work

Just how would one know this if it has not been experienced?

So we are martyring Mark Wilson? Martyring is often an emotion-based rationalization for justifying a senseless death, either before or after it occurs. Notions of being honored for dying in battle and kamikazi come to mind.

Surely you can't be serious in this sentiment? First, the statement flies in the face of the whole concept of self defense. The purpose of self defense, or in defense of others, is to survive. Mark Wilson was very involved in self defense training for the purpose of surviving potential conflicts.

Secondly, it assumes that somebody like Mark Wilson somehow got some benefit out of feeling like he was a hero for that very short period of time that he was involved in the fight. Mark Wilson never had any insight as to whether he was a hero or not and judging by the quoted comments made about his personal character by his friends. He would not have considered himself as a hero. His acts were in character for what he did normally, trying to help out.

Thirdly, it presupposes that not being involved somehow makes people cowardly.

Self sacrifice is not always prudent and is often quite wasteful. Mark Wilson is a hero, a dead hero, now a martyr apparently. And, contrary to the highly emotional notion that living for one second as a hero is better than living a thousand years as a coward, Mark Wilson's acts did not somehow instantly improve his quality of life in a manner to make it all worthwhile for him. He had no way of knowing if his acts were successful or not. Based on comments made by FBI officers in the Miami FBI shootout in 1986 when Platt advanced on their position and found them behind their car, reloading, if Mark Wilson was conscious and he saw what was going on when Arroyo walked over and shot him, then his last seconds of life were not in the vein of enjoying his heroic status, but in something of terror, dread, and realizing that he was going to die at that very moment in a manner that was not of his choosing.

[Jungle Work]

DNS,
If you don't understand the True Heroism of Mark Wilson, I am not equipted to explain it to you. I do understand how you might not realize the Heroic Effort he made to save folks. Where I go to the VA Hospital, they just recently renamed it for Thomas Creek, a Marine who paid the supreme sacrifice to save his buddies.

Rank and orgainzation: Lance Corporal, U.S. Marine Corps, Company I, 3d Battalion, 9th Marines, 3d Marine Division (Rein), FMF. Place and date: Near Cam Lo, Republic of Vietnam, 13 February. 1969. Entered service at: Amarillo, Texas. Born 7 April 1950, Joplin, Mo.

Citation:
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a rifleman with Company 1 in action against enemy forces. L/Cpl. Creek's squad was providing security for a convoy moving to resupply the Vandegrift Command Base when an enemy command detonated mine destroyed 1 of the vehicles and halted the convoy near the Cam Lo Resettlement Village. Almost immediately, the marines came under a heavy volume of hostile mortar fire followed by intense small-arms fire from a well-concealed enemy force. As his squad deployed to engage the enemy, L/Cpl. Creek quickly moved to a fighting position and aggressively engaged in the fire fight. Observing a position from which he could more effectively deliver fire against the hostile forces. he completely disregarded his own safety as he fearlessly dashed across the fire-swept terrain and was seriously wounded by enemy fire. At the same time, an enemy grenade was thrown into the gully where he had fallen, landing between him and several companions. Fully realizing the inevitable results of his action, L/Cpl. Creek rolled on the grenade and absorbed the full force of the explosion with his body, thereby saving the lives of 5 of his fellow marines. As a result of his heroic action, his men were inspired to such aggressive action that the enemy was defeated and the convoy was able to continue its vital mission. L/Cpl. Creek's indomitable courage, inspired the Marine Corps and the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.

It only took most of the Citizens of the City of Amarillo about 35 years to understand the degree and depth of Thomas Creek's self scraifice. So I sure as you get older, you may understand more about "love of fellow man and self scraifice".

Jungle Work

[Para Bellum]

...your advice is very welcome. Maybe it interest's you that the police instructor I train with here in Europe recommends the same: Cover first, then some in the chest and if they show no effect: shoot the pelvis.

[E.L.]

The Tyler Paper www.tylerpaper.com reported that Mark Wilson did indeed shot Mr. Arroyo at least once in the groin. The PD released a statement that said that according to preliminary autopsy reports, it appeared that Mr. Wilson had indeed hit Mr. Arroyo at least once in the groin area. I would have thought that would have put him down immediately, guess not.

[JohnKSa]

A recent article I read indicates that police now think that Mr. Wilson may have hit Arroyo Sr. in the groin, below the area protected by the vest. Also, I have seen nothing to indicate that Mr. Wilson only fired twice. The best case for that is an eyewitness who says that Mr. Wilson HIT Arroyo Sr. twice--not that he shot twice. Another eyewitness said that Wilson and Arroyo Sr. traded shots missing each other until Arroyo hit Wilson and then walked over and executed him. To me "trading shots" makes it sound like Wilson shot more than twice.