Things I have learned about HD and shotguns

Arnistador · August 28, 2000, 01:19 PM

Over the last few years, I have learned the following:

1. A four or five round tube is generally sufficient for HD uses, and sometimes preferable. The extended magazine adds significant weight to the front end of the gun, especially when filled. Does not make extended house clearing sessions much fun.

2. Three point slings do nothing more than get in the way in shotgunning. I prefer a simple strap connected to the buttstock and the side of the mag tube.

3. Side saddles look cool but are not necessary, and interfere with the functioning of some autoloaders. A cheap alternative that does as good a job is a buttstock shell carrier.

4. Cylinder bore barrels should be choked or back bored so that all nine shot pellets can stay within an 8" pattern at 25 yards. This extends the A and B zones of your shotgun.

There are more. I'll post them when I think of them.

Dave McC · August 29, 2000, 07:32 AM

Good points,but some slight disagreements....

First, ANY reliable shotgun with at least a 2 shot capacity is a terrific HD tool in trained hands. The extended mag is nice not for mo' ammo, but the extra weight helps control.Fact is, if you need more than a shot or two,you need backup more than a few more rounds.

Second, for HD and HD only, a sling is just something to snag and catch at a horribly wrong moment.

Third, Butt cuffs slow the mount for me, and catch on stuff too. I prefer the SS, tho it's not perfect either.

Fourth, 8" at 25 yards is amazing.Who did your bbl?

Arnistador · August 29, 2000, 11:49 AM

In my opinion, a five shot mag tube (+1 in the chamber) should be sufficient for HD. I must admit I haven't taken off the mag extension, but I don't find myself loading to capacity due to weight.

Slings can snag and get in the way, but as my shotgun usually serves more than one purpose, I have a straight sling. Though I agree, if you will never use yours for anything but HD, don't bother with the sling. Keep in mind that most shotgun classes require a sling for safe carry of the shotgun while on the range.

If you can use a sidesaddle, by all means. They interfere with the functioning of all Benelli Super 90s. I haven't found that a buttcuff slows anything down for me when mounted on my strong side shoulder so I have no problem with it.

I currently have a bbl with Vang, who typically patterns guns at 10-12" at 25 yards. Just this weekend I saw one of his 870 barrels pattern about 8" with the Federal Reduced Recoil Tactical Buckshot loads. Pretty impressive.

BTW, typically speaking, Remington 870 18" HD barrels pattern horribly out of the box, and commonly creates a donut pattern in the B zone.

Tim

Dave McC · August 29, 2000, 12:20 PM

My HD 870 has no sling, but the deer 870 that works as a backup does,50 weeks of the year. Plan B again. All 4 870s here at Casa McC do have the studs.

The math for a shotgun in trained and competent hands comes down to one shot=one perp neutralized.So, all those rounds in the extended mag may come in handy if ALL the Crips and Bloods invade your house, but not till then as AMMO.However...

I can handle a 9 1/2 lb 870 like a 20 ga SXS when the adrenaline is doing what adrenaline does best. Little recoil,fast reacquistion or fast shifting to another target. That's what all the weight is for. And, the clamping of the extension to the bbl usually shrinks slug groups down considerably, so in the unlikely chance the action moves to longer distances outside, I can switch to Brennekes and still reach out and touch someone, the right someone.

That bbl, BTW, is w/o any choke, but has a lengthened forcing cone,and patterns my old duty load into 20-24" at 25 yards.That was better than duty shotguns,Cylinder bore riot 870s.

I do know some buckshot fanatics that get much better patterns with their deer loads, but it's expensive and requires mucho dinero and load research.

More to the point for HD,that bbl patterns buck into 5-8" at 10 yards,regardless of load.

curious · August 29, 2000, 07:03 PM

Arnistador,

interesting posts. Is this info from personal experiences, opinions or observations?

always looking for good information.

curious

JNewell · August 30, 2000, 07:46 AM

I have a Vang'ed barrel on an 870 and although I don't have a patterned target handy to measure right now, at 25 yards it definitely is more like 8" than 10" with the Federal Tac 00 load. I haven't patterned it with anything else, and it might do worse (among other possibilities, soft shot deforming and flying wider?). It's a pretty scarey target to look at, to be honest.

One of the things I've learned about HD shotguns is that when you get an 870 loaded up with a full extended tube and a sidesaddle the darned thing feels like it weighs a ton, compared to an AR with a 16" A1 (lightweight) profile barrel. You could work up a sweat in a hurry making the 870 run fast.

Another thing I learned is that those kewl-looking ventilated handguards are probably a waste of weight. I had a M-500 that had one (traded for an 870); the 870 does not have one and even after some pretty fast and furious firing (the "rolling thunder" exercise, to work on reloading skills), the barrel, while quite warm, isn't hot enough to justify the extra weight...IMO.

Dave McC · August 30, 2000, 10:15 AM

J, you've heard my opinions of PG only shotguns. Handguards are right down there also. Did a saturation exercise once, 20 shots, 30 seconds. Bbl was hot, but a handguard was not needed, nor desired...

My heavyweight 870 would wear me out fast except I have handled it until it feels like a body part, and when the adrenaline flows it doesn't feel heavy at all. Taken a coupla deer with it in full dress.

Shin-Tao · August 30, 2000, 11:36 AM

I preffer the stock mounted shell carriers. They never seem to get in my way, and I like having the extra shells at the ready. 99.9% of the time you won't need those extra shells, but 99% of the time you don't need a shotgun at all. But it is better to be prepaired.

On my Mossy I have a full length stock with PG, a really Bennelli looking thing. I like the pg stock better than the conventional stock. Most weapons I've ever used have had PG stocks, so it's what I'm used to.

Arnistador · August 30, 2000, 12:58 PM

These are from personal observations and experiences, mainly from training in close quarters type situations.

I have to agree with Dave McC on pistol grips. They work well on rifles, but I have never liked them on shotguns. A straight stock is faster to shoulder (for me) and absorbs recoil more naturally. Pistol grips tend make the gun roll upward during heavy firing cycles.

As far as slings, sidesaddles, mag extensions, rifle/ghost ring sights, handguards, etc., I chalk most of these up to personal preference. Just remember, simpler is usually better.

The beauty of a shotgun for HD is that it is usually fairly inexpensive, and there are very few things you really NEED on it.

Here is my setup:

Remington 1100, no sling, extended mag tube (I could live w/o this), 18" Vang Comped bbl, bead sight, synthetic stock, jumbo head safety, SureFire forend.

Tim

dwestfall · August 30, 2000, 01:50 PM

My Vang'ed 870 does about 7" at 25 yds, 9-10" at 35 yards. Hot diggity! I remember it as "fist-sized pattern out to 25 yds, palm-sized out to 40." FedTac00 of course.

Having a Vanged barrel does make reading books on shotguns tough though... they automatically limit ranges and rule out shots that are entirely doable with a Vanged barrel.

I like the extended tube so I can keep the "normal" capacity in the weapon plus have the option to slug-select.

I like the sidesaddle over the buttcuff because it positions the rounds very close to the loading port. But nobody said you couldn't do both! (Heavy though.)

Mr. Pub · August 30, 2000, 02:29 PM

Speaking of Vang comping your shotgun etc. here is an article from the Halo Group newsletter describing the perfect shotgun setup
http://www.thehalogroup.com/thehalog...il.html#patrol

Dr.Rob · August 30, 2000, 05:29 PM

For the price of Vang comping you can shoot a hell of a lot of shells.

I agree that the extended mag adds a ton of wieght and makes the gun "seem" bigger overall.. I'd never use that for hunting. 4+1 is enough for elk and bear. But its nice to have 7+1 when you think your keester is on the line.

Slings: essential for hunting not needed for HD, nor are side saddles tac lights, heat shields, bayonets or pistol grips.

I have a Remington "sportsman 12 magnum" (pre express budget model 870 3 inch) with a remmington 21 inch deer barrel with rifle sights and a rifled tube. At 20 feet the choke makes little difference, the wad is still flying with the shot. When I shoot competition I add a 3 shot extension (so i can compete with those benelli guys) but that's it. Off a bench I can put 3 slugs touching at the top of the bulls eye at 50 yards so the sights are loc-tighted down right where they are.

Cocking an 870 is the sound of freedom

(my dad said that)

Rob

dwestfall · August 30, 2000, 05:44 PM

A tac light not needed? Do you have three hands??

Dave McC · August 30, 2000, 08:11 PM

Pub, thanks for that, a few caveats....

First, the writer's insistence on an ambidextrous shotgun is a little overdone. Anyone who gets serious about a shotgun is firing weak side anyway, and it's not hard to hit the offside safety quick with a few minute's practice.The rest will be ineffective regardless of strong side.

The writer is talking about the best CRUISER gun, able to be used by a variety of people of many shapes, sizes and motivations. Note there's no mention of stock fit, because in a dept, one size does fit all, or else.I fought against that for ten years, and got exactly nowhere.

We who don't have dept specs,needs or budgets can tailor a shotgun for our particular needs. Nobody here shoots a shotgun lefthanded, so ambidextrous controls are not needed. Ranges for HD are well within the max effective range of shot,so dependence on slugs is less crucial. We also can tailor our ammo. Note that no mention was made of patterning nor zeroing.

Shooting trap is not good, according to the writer.Trouble is,the only officers I trained that moved past bare minumum proficiency were recreational shooters,many of whom shot trap.

IMO, ANY shotgun shooting familiarizes the shoter with the controls and the "feel". Of course,practical practice is most like actual AS scenarios, but the shotgun sports do serve a positive purpose in HD/Tactical shooting. Not to mention building the right muscles. Swinging a 7-10 lb shotgun takes a little effort,and building those muscles by exercise sounds like a valuable practice to me.

The article is good, just a few little things...

August 28, 2000, 01:19 PM	#1
Arnistador Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 1999 Posts: 150	Over the last few years, I have learned the following: 1. A four or five round tube is generally sufficient for HD uses, and sometimes preferable. The extended magazine adds significant weight to the front end of the gun, especially when filled. Does not make extended house clearing sessions much fun. 2. Three point slings do nothing more than get in the way in shotgunning. I prefer a simple strap connected to the buttstock and the side of the mag tube. 3. Side saddles look cool but are not necessary, and interfere with the functioning of some autoloaders. A cheap alternative that does as good a job is a buttstock shell carrier. 4. Cylinder bore barrels should be choked or back bored so that all nine shot pellets can stay within an 8" pattern at 25 yards. This extends the A and B zones of your shotgun. There are more. I'll post them when I think of them.

August 29, 2000, 07:32 AM	#2
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Good points,but some slight disagreements.... First, ANY reliable shotgun with at least a 2 shot capacity is a terrific HD tool in trained hands. The extended mag is nice not for mo' ammo, but the extra weight helps control.Fact is, if you need more than a shot or two,you need backup more than a few more rounds. Second, for HD and HD only, a sling is just something to snag and catch at a horribly wrong moment. Third, Butt cuffs slow the mount for me, and catch on stuff too. I prefer the SS, tho it's not perfect either. Fourth, 8" at 25 yards is amazing.Who did your bbl?

August 29, 2000, 11:49 AM	#3
Arnistador Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 1999 Posts: 150	In my opinion, a five shot mag tube (+1 in the chamber) should be sufficient for HD. I must admit I haven't taken off the mag extension, but I don't find myself loading to capacity due to weight. Slings can snag and get in the way, but as my shotgun usually serves more than one purpose, I have a straight sling. Though I agree, if you will never use yours for anything but HD, don't bother with the sling. Keep in mind that most shotgun classes require a sling for safe carry of the shotgun while on the range. If you can use a sidesaddle, by all means. They interfere with the functioning of all Benelli Super 90s. I haven't found that a buttcuff slows anything down for me when mounted on my strong side shoulder so I have no problem with it. I currently have a bbl with Vang, who typically patterns guns at 10-12" at 25 yards. Just this weekend I saw one of his 870 barrels pattern about 8" with the Federal Reduced Recoil Tactical Buckshot loads. Pretty impressive. BTW, typically speaking, Remington 870 18" HD barrels pattern horribly out of the box, and commonly creates a donut pattern in the B zone. Tim

August 29, 2000, 12:20 PM	#4
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	My HD 870 has no sling, but the deer 870 that works as a backup does,50 weeks of the year. Plan B again. All 4 870s here at Casa McC do have the studs. The math for a shotgun in trained and competent hands comes down to one shot=one perp neutralized.So, all those rounds in the extended mag may come in handy if ALL the Crips and Bloods invade your house, but not till then as AMMO.However... I can handle a 9 1/2 lb 870 like a 20 ga SXS when the adrenaline is doing what adrenaline does best. Little recoil,fast reacquistion or fast shifting to another target. That's what all the weight is for. And, the clamping of the extension to the bbl usually shrinks slug groups down considerably, so in the unlikely chance the action moves to longer distances outside, I can switch to Brennekes and still reach out and touch someone, the right someone. That bbl, BTW, is w/o any choke, but has a lengthened forcing cone,and patterns my old duty load into 20-24" at 25 yards.That was better than duty shotguns,Cylinder bore riot 870s. I do know some buckshot fanatics that get much better patterns with their deer loads, but it's expensive and requires mucho dinero and load research. More to the point for HD,that bbl patterns buck into 5-8" at 10 yards,regardless of load.

August 29, 2000, 07:03 PM	#5
curious Member Join Date: March 12, 2000 Posts: 49	Arnistador, interesting posts. Is this info from personal experiences, opinions or observations? always looking for good information. curious

August 30, 2000, 07:46 AM	#6
JNewell Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2000 Posts: 1,092	I have a Vang'ed barrel on an 870 and although I don't have a patterned target handy to measure right now, at 25 yards it definitely is more like 8" than 10" with the Federal Tac 00 load. I haven't patterned it with anything else, and it might do worse (among other possibilities, soft shot deforming and flying wider?). It's a pretty scarey target to look at, to be honest. One of the things I've learned about HD shotguns is that when you get an 870 loaded up with a full extended tube and a sidesaddle the darned thing feels like it weighs a ton, compared to an AR with a 16" A1 (lightweight) profile barrel. You could work up a sweat in a hurry making the 870 run fast. Another thing I learned is that those kewl-looking ventilated handguards are probably a waste of weight. I had a M-500 that had one (traded for an 870); the 870 does not have one and even after some pretty fast and furious firing (the "rolling thunder" exercise, to work on reloading skills), the barrel, while quite warm, isn't hot enough to justify the extra weight...IMO.

August 30, 2000, 10:15 AM	#7
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	J, you've heard my opinions of PG only shotguns. Handguards are right down there also. Did a saturation exercise once, 20 shots, 30 seconds. Bbl was hot, but a handguard was not needed, nor desired... My heavyweight 870 would wear me out fast except I have handled it until it feels like a body part, and when the adrenaline flows it doesn't feel heavy at all. Taken a coupla deer with it in full dress.

August 30, 2000, 11:36 AM	#8
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	I preffer the stock mounted shell carriers. They never seem to get in my way, and I like having the extra shells at the ready. 99.9% of the time you won't need those extra shells, but 99% of the time you don't need a shotgun at all. But it is better to be prepaired. On my Mossy I have a full length stock with PG, a really Bennelli looking thing. I like the pg stock better than the conventional stock. Most weapons I've ever used have had PG stocks, so it's what I'm used to.

August 30, 2000, 12:58 PM	#9
Arnistador Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 1999 Posts: 150	These are from personal observations and experiences, mainly from training in close quarters type situations. I have to agree with Dave McC on pistol grips. They work well on rifles, but I have never liked them on shotguns. A straight stock is faster to shoulder (for me) and absorbs recoil more naturally. Pistol grips tend make the gun roll upward during heavy firing cycles. As far as slings, sidesaddles, mag extensions, rifle/ghost ring sights, handguards, etc., I chalk most of these up to personal preference. Just remember, simpler is usually better. The beauty of a shotgun for HD is that it is usually fairly inexpensive, and there are very few things you really NEED on it. Here is my setup: Remington 1100, no sling, extended mag tube (I could live w/o this), 18" Vang Comped bbl, bead sight, synthetic stock, jumbo head safety, SureFire forend. Tim

August 30, 2000, 01:50 PM	#10
dwestfall Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 1999 Posts: 108	My Vang'ed 870 does about 7" at 25 yds, 9-10" at 35 yards. Hot diggity! I remember it as "fist-sized pattern out to 25 yds, palm-sized out to 40." FedTac00 of course. Having a Vanged barrel does make reading books on shotguns tough though... they automatically limit ranges and rule out shots that are entirely doable with a Vanged barrel. I like the extended tube so I can keep the "normal" capacity in the weapon plus have the option to slug-select. I like the sidesaddle over the buttcuff because it positions the rounds very close to the loading port. But nobody said you couldn't do both! (Heavy though.)

August 30, 2000, 02:29 PM	#11
Mr. Pub Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2000 Posts: 392	Speaking of Vang comping your shotgun etc. here is an article from the Halo Group newsletter describing the perfect shotgun setup http://www.thehalogroup.com/thehalog...il.html#patrol

August 30, 2000, 05:29 PM	#12
Dr.Rob Staff Alumnus Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: Denver Posts: 2,454	For the price of Vang comping you can shoot a hell of a lot of shells. I agree that the extended mag adds a ton of wieght and makes the gun "seem" bigger overall.. I'd never use that for hunting. 4+1 is enough for elk and bear. But its nice to have 7+1 when you think your keester is on the line. Slings: essential for hunting not needed for HD, nor are side saddles tac lights, heat shields, bayonets or pistol grips. I have a Remington "sportsman 12 magnum" (pre express budget model 870 3 inch) with a remmington 21 inch deer barrel with rifle sights and a rifled tube. At 20 feet the choke makes little difference, the wad is still flying with the shot. When I shoot competition I add a 3 shot extension (so i can compete with those benelli guys) but that's it. Off a bench I can put 3 slugs touching at the top of the bulls eye at 50 yards so the sights are loc-tighted down right where they are. Cocking an 870 is the sound of freedom (my dad said that) Rob

August 30, 2000, 05:44 PM	#13
dwestfall Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 1999 Posts: 108	A tac light not needed? Do you have three hands??

August 30, 2000, 08:11 PM	#14
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Pub, thanks for that, a few caveats.... First, the writer's insistence on an ambidextrous shotgun is a little overdone. Anyone who gets serious about a shotgun is firing weak side anyway, and it's not hard to hit the offside safety quick with a few minute's practice.The rest will be ineffective regardless of strong side. The writer is talking about the best CRUISER gun, able to be used by a variety of people of many shapes, sizes and motivations. Note there's no mention of stock fit, because in a dept, one size does fit all, or else.I fought against that for ten years, and got exactly nowhere. We who don't have dept specs,needs or budgets can tailor a shotgun for our particular needs. Nobody here shoots a shotgun lefthanded, so ambidextrous controls are not needed. Ranges for HD are well within the max effective range of shot,so dependence on slugs is less crucial. We also can tailor our ammo. Note that no mention was made of patterning nor zeroing. Shooting trap is not good, according to the writer.Trouble is,the only officers I trained that moved past bare minumum proficiency were recreational shooters,many of whom shot trap. IMO, ANY shotgun shooting familiarizes the shoter with the controls and the "feel". Of course,practical practice is most like actual AS scenarios, but the shotgun sports do serve a positive purpose in HD/Tactical shooting. Not to mention building the right muscles. Swinging a 7-10 lb shotgun takes a little effort,and building those muscles by exercise sounds like a valuable practice to me. The article is good, just a few little things...