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Old November 3, 2002, 05:01 PM   #1
Dave McC
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Recoil and kick.....

Another in a continuing series on starting a new shotgunner, and/or improvement for intermediate folks.

Recoil, sometimes called free recoil, is simple physics. Mass times Velocity Squared equals Energy.

MxV(2)=E. Einstein understood the concept but I don't think he did much wingshooting.

A coupla numbers punched into a $5 calculator give you the recoil.

Kick(AKA perceived recoil) is felt. While related to recoil, it's influenced by a myriad of factors. Things like butt size,face size and shape, softness, direction of force,even mindset,affect kick.

Recoil is measured in ft/lbs, kick is measured in pain or the lack of it.

Nobody shows off their new shotgun and says, "It's only got X numbers of Ft/lbs". More likely they'll say something like, "It doesn't kick much unless I use turkey loads".

Kick is why not everyone is a shotgunner.

But, it doesn't have to be that way. True, folks the size of NFL linemen usually have an easier time of it than pixies do, but mindset is more crucial than tonnage. Right after mindset, tho is fit.

Most anyone,IMO,willing to put in the time and effort and with the right instruction can learn to shoot a shotgun fairtomiddlin'. Part of that time and effort, of course, is getting a shotgun that fits, and is of a weight compatible with the shooter's strength. That last part doesn't get the attention it should. And there's a Catch 22 we'll talk about later.

Many of us have kin or kith that want to shoot with us, but have no experience and have been listening to war stories of how much shotguns kick and the pain that results. Recall that I mentioned mindset above.

Often it's not the recoil that's the problem, it's the anticipation of kick. IOW, the new shooter is whipped before they pull the trigger.

Back when I was instructing, I got a lot of rookies through remedial shotgun by using my own 870. I'd tell them it had been worked on, and it kicked less, which it did. That was due to some added weight more than anything trick. Rounding off the toe of the pad so it didn't dig into the chests of women and barrelchested or overweight men was about the only mod for comfort done at the time. But they believed it kicked less, so it kicked less. Faith can move more than mountains.

Sometimes reality is not nearly as important as the perception of reality, and not just with shotguns.

And now for that Catch 22....

Back when the Brits had an empire, they evolved the Rule of 96. This little bit of wisdom states that a shotgun should weigh 96 times the weight of the charge. IOW, a shotgun made to work with an oz of shot should weigh 1x96 oz, or 6 lbs.This had gun fit and balance as givens. It comes close to being a great rule of thumb. More weight, less kick, less weight, more kick.

The limiting factors here include human strength.
The more a shotgun weighs, the faster people get tired, and people use bad form when they're tired. Bad form increases kick as much as a violation of the Rule Of 96.

We see this frequently at the range. Someone is starting out their kid, SO, or other close person and they've dug the old single bbl H&R out of the closet.It's light enough to handle, but so light that the Rule Of 96 is grossly violated, even with a light target load.

Or,the rookie has to deal with an 8 lb autoloader, recoil and kick are tolerable but it's too heavy for the rookie to work with for long.

There's fixes,of course.In a light shotgun like that H&R, use very light loads or the Little Skeeter inserts. 3/4 oz 28 gauge loads or their handloaded equivalent are an answer here. And even the Super Light AAs are available to nonreloaders, tho not at a chain store.

For the pixie with her hubbie's 1100, keep the sessions short.

Given a choice between starting off a new shotgunner with a very light shotgun with a good bit of kick with standard loads or a standard weight shotgun with less kick,I'd pick the shotgun that matches the shooter best. A pixie gets the light shotgun, and hopefully very light loads. Someone of more generous dimensions may do better with the standard weight repeater.

So, we want to reduce the kick....

First, reduce the recoil. Heavier shotgun, lighter loads, slower loads. And the things like backboring, longer cones, etc, help a bit.

Second, better fit, a better pad, a LARGER pad,
better hearing protection,better form, a longer bbl(Noise and blast play a part in perceived recoil)all can help. Leaning into the shot a bit more can often make the difference.

HTH, sing out if there's anything still fuzzy...

Last edited by Dave McC; November 4, 2002 at 05:12 PM.
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Old November 3, 2002, 06:10 PM   #2
Mannlicher
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A given shotgun will 'kick' different people to a different degree. Again, a factor of tolerance, gun weight, load, fit, and how the gun is held. I remember many years back, I picked up a Parker Field grade double because the old gent that owned it just could NOT handle the 'kick'. To me, it was a pussycat.
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Old November 3, 2002, 06:11 PM   #3
KSFreeman
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In recoil: the mental is to the physical as three is to one. (My apologies to Napoleon).
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Old November 3, 2002, 06:26 PM   #4
HSMITH
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Nicely done Dave, appreciate you taking the time to type that out.

I agree with you. And I really hate seeing the new shooter being given a little 20ga single shot that weighs 4 pounds with 1 ounce field loads because that was what was on sale. I would rather pattern a box 3.5" steel out of an autoloader than shoot a round of trap with that nasty little 20ga. Just about every time you go out you see some variation of the above, substitute in the shooter and nasty shotgun you happen to see.
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Old November 4, 2002, 05:12 AM   #5
Dave McC
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Thanks, folks...

Mannlicher, it's true. Different shotguns seem to handle differently as well as kick differently to different shooters. Some absolutes pertain to recoil, but kick is subjective.

Dunno about 3 to 1, KS, but the mental part is there and crucial.

H, Son's little NEF 12 weighs 5 lbs, 9 oz and does have a 3" chamber. Not on a bet.
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Old November 4, 2002, 08:34 AM   #6
dks
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note

mass x velocity2 = energy.

Really the recoil also depends on how quickly the shot, and the gun but in the opposite direction, accelerate. Using F=ma, the more the acceleration and the mass the more the force that will push you back.

The pain you will feel will also depend on the area of the guns stock in contact with the body, so that since P=F/A if the force, F is the same and area A is smaller the pressure, P will be larger.

So how hard and with how much pressure the gun kicks you depends on the acceleration of the shot and its mass, and coincidentally the guns, and the area of contact with your body.

Your weight will not affect that, and actually if your heavier you will feel more pain since you will not be pushed back by the gun as much as a lighter person but will tend to absorb all the force of the stock.


So for a given load/speed/acceleration of load the only way to decrease recoil is to use a heavy gun and a wider stock end.

Stock pads are designed to slow down the transfer of the force from the gun to you so that you get a longer but lower pushing force.


Nice Greek signature Mc.
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Old November 4, 2002, 05:17 PM   #7
Dave McC
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Thanks, I checked with my kids and redid the formula.

Kick is felt recoil for the purposes of this discussion. All sorts of things can alter that, but the free recoil stays the same unless speed or mass changes.

I find your statement interesting that big folks get kicked more than pixies. My observations show the contrary, tho with plenty of exceptions. Recoil tolerance is not a constant.

Last edited by Dave McC; November 5, 2002 at 05:13 AM.
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Old November 5, 2002, 07:39 AM   #8
dks
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Think of it in terms of trees being uprooted by strong winds whereas hay which will bend suffers no damage, or in case of hitting something soft, less painfull for you and the object and something hard.

The pain tolerance might differ because either bigger men ar harder!!! or they are fatter, so their fatty tissue will cushion the gun.
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Old November 5, 2002, 10:14 AM   #9
part swede
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As an aside, let's not confuse Einstein with Newton here. The kinetic energy of an object is 1/2 * mass * velocity^2.
Momentum is mass * velocity. Einstein showed that the energy equivalent of mass is E=mc^2, as is generated when subatomic particles are annihilated in a nuclear chain reaction.
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Old November 5, 2002, 11:29 AM   #10
dks
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Einstien theory works for ALL objects approaching the speed of light irrespective of its mass and has been proven with small particles. Thats why Cyclotrons have to be adjusted with respect to the curvature of their paths as the electrons get faster.

Usually at speeds over 2x 108 m/s.

Really the problem with recoil comes down to
Force=rate of change of momentum.
If the mass is constant then the rate of change of speed, the acceleration is the decisive factor.
So if you can slow down any change of the speed of the gun or the person then the force decreases.
Heavier guns or people will have larger inertia so they will require larger forces to move.
So a heavy gun will kick less and a heavy person will also move less absorbing more of the kinetic energy in the form of deformations to his chest.
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Old November 5, 2002, 05:13 PM   #11
Dave McC
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Let's not get lost in the physics, folks. The fact remains that shotguns kick, and that's the limiting factor for many of us.

Even Brister described shooting the 10 gauge mag shell in anything but an auto as like being in a car wreck. The few rounds of 10 gauge I've fired were like taking a block from an NFL lineman sans pads.

'Nother load/gun combo that hurts many of us is the 3 inch 20 gauge, fired in a light shotgun.
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