Upgrade pistol or get a rifle

[Chef Ryan]

Hello I am interested is doing 3 Gun competitions eventually.

My basic question is with 3 Gun in mind is it better to advance in pistols or rifles first?

Obviously what ever you have is a good start but i am planning on buying a new gun with competition in mind and can easily go in either direction. I am not necessarily asking for weapon recommendations (although the they are welcome).

I currently have a beretta px4 storm which I have used in a couple of IDPA shoots. It works but I would like to be more competitive. I have $2,500 to spend and am contemplating either upgrading to a better competition pistol or getting a rifle to start high power competitions. For rifles I am debating on an AR-15 platform that I can customize over time for 3 gun or a bolt action 1,000 yard rifle that would be more for training (and possibly deer hunting) and eventually get a better rifle for 3 Gun (unless I find one suitable for long range, tactical and deer that can be upgraded over time for 3 gun)

I have a military police background and I am very familiar with pistol and rifle tactics not so much with shotguns but I am a quick study.

[Jimro]

If you have 2,500 to spend, get a basic AR-15 (don't spend more than 1000 bucks) and spend the rest to get a Benelli M2 (MSRP 1,449 for a basic 12 gauge).

Until your scores don't go up with the pistol for 6 matches in a row you don't need to upgrade your pistol. And quite frankly the pistol is the hardest firearm to master in terms of fast accuracy.

Jimro

[g.willikers]

All the shooting games are more dependent on skill rather than stuff.
To do them better is more about improving technique.
Of course, it's only possible to improve if you have something to improve with.
From the description of your future ambitions, it sounds like the next thing to buy would be an AR.
Your present pistol should be just fine for quite awhile, yet.
But check the many rules for what rifle category you want to participate in, as there are many corresponding options.

[9x45]

Your pistol will work fine for 3 gun because it's basically about the rifle and shotgun stages. Any AR15 will work with a good aftermarket trigger and quality optic. And today there are a number of ready to race shotguns, FN SLP, Mossberg 930 JM, Remington VersaMax. At one time the Benelli was the dominant shotgun, and all of us old school guys run the original H&K Benelli M1 Super 90. The shotgun does need to be choked. So 3 gun is won by long range rifle, targets at 300-400 yards, and by reloading the shotgun quickly. You probably want to start in tactical optics. Here is the source for 3 gun competition, all competition shooters hang out here. You also have a great resource on this forum, MarkCO. He is quite the shooter.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=86


http://www.3gunshotgun.com/

[MrWesson]

I kept out of 3 gun because of the shotgun. Almost everyone is shooting high end semis I couldn't justify the cost.

[T. O'Heir]

"...with 3 Gun in mind..." You'll need all three to play. There is no advancing in one without the others.
"...Almost everyone is shooting high end semis..." That isn't a reason not to go play anyway. 3 Gun is no different than any of the other shooting games. It's a game and nothing more. Object is to have fun shooting.
"...So 3 gun is won by long range rifle..." Not according to your 3gunshotgun.com link. They say it's the shotgun. BS. It's how much fun you had.

[RickB]

When I was shooting 3-gun, the pistol's specifics didn't seem to really matter.
At that time, ten years ago, the pistol was scored major, but at least some matches score the pistol and rifle minor, so having a high-cap 9mm would be a benefit, but I'd still put the rifle ahead of the pistol and shotgun, in terms of what you want to upgrade first.
I was always reluctant to roll around on the ground with a $2000 pistol in a skeletonized race holster, so if I were going to get into 3-gun today, I'd get something like a Glock 34, and put it in a plain, straight-drop holster like you'd use for USPSA Production or IDPA.
Your Beretta is more than adequate.
I won my class at nationals shooting a single stack .45, pump 12ga, and a M1 Carbine in Limited division, so while cutting-edge equipment will help, you can definitely do OK shooting whatever you have.

[9x45]

T.O. Yea, I read that too, but that's not my experience over the last 15 years. Shotgun heavy stages tend to be clubs that are less than 100 yards, and only have one rifle bay. That club looks east coast to me, but out here we regularly run to 400 yards on several bays. You can certainly loose a 3 gun by shotgun, but the big matches, USPSA Multi-un Nationals, Superstition Mystery Mountain, Rocky mountain and the Iron Man are absolutely won by long range rifle.

What shotgun(s) and rifle(s) setups are you using?

[Jim Watson]

You need to clarify your objectives.
3 gun, High Power, or 1000 yard?
There is almost no overlap, except that you could shoot a Service Rifle OK in 3 gun.

At the entry level of 3 gun, almost any pistol will do, and Pop's rabbit gun with a magazine extension will do most of what you need in a shotgun.
Rifle phases can be very variable. An AR with a very flexible sight setup seems the place to spend money first.

[Chef Ryan]

Ok sound like rifle is the better option. I am just not a fan of the safety on my beretta. It's an extra step every time I draw but it is doing the job to get the technique improvement and practice that I was looking for.

I haven't shot rifles since my days in the military so I knew I would need to get something to start building my skills back up for that.

My current goal is improving my skills on a weapons platform that I can customize over time (better scopes, triggers etc.) and still allow me to be competitive once I get into 3 gun so I figured getting into something like high power would help improve my skills

I am just at the point of either upgrading to a better pistol or continuing to shoot with the beretta and get a rifle to start training with and I wasn't sure which was more crucial in 3 gun.

From what I can tell the AR-15 platform seems like the way to go so I figure $1000 or less on the gun $1,000 on the optics and the rest for ammo??? Or do you guys recommend something different?

[RickB]

I have not shot every shooting sport there is, but the "major" practical sports do not require that you engage the manual safety on double action pistols.
Even then, it's not really an "extra" step as it's done during the draw stroke, so it doesn't add any time.

[9x45]

The AR-15 is the rifle for 3 gun. Like I said earlier, all you need is a good aftermarket trigger and a good optic. You want a 18" flat top, and decide whether it should be an A2 or M4 stock. Many of the aftermarket triggers are modular and externally adjustable. Also these days there are a number of really good 1x6 optics that don't cost a fortune. $2k is more than enough to start. Four 30 round mags will do, most rifle stages are less than 75 rounds. Zero at 300 yards, then you are covered in a 10" window from contact to 350 yards. Both Remington and Winchester have online ballistics software. If you have any money left over get a range finder, one good to 500 yards.

Best thing you can do now is to find your nearest 3 gun, sanctioned or club level, and get over there and talk to the shooters. Here is a state list from AR15.com

http://3gn.ar15.com/forums/t_13_1/32..._by_State.html

[9x45]

RickB, "I won my class at nationals shooting a single stack .45, pump 12ga, and a M1 Carbine in Limited division"

Thats pretty impressive running a M1 carbine in Heavy Metal. Most guys run the AR10 or M14 in that division. This was the USPSA Multi Gun Nationals? What was your zero on that?

[str8tshot]

For $2,500 you can buy a Stoeger M3K shotgun made for 3 gun, (~$700) a G34 (~700), and any AR for ~$1000. The M3K will need a tube extension to be able to hold 12 rounds. The G34 is ready to roll, but you may want to upgrade the sights. A good belt, mag pouches, and holster are all that's left to buy unless you are shooting past your ability to use irons. Primary arms has a decent red dot with magnifier for a few hundred. Other optics are available for a reasonable price too. 3 gun doesn't take much to start to play; it could eat your bank if you try to compete with the pros.

[RickB]

RickB, "I won my class at nationals shooting a single stack .45, pump 12ga, and a M1 Carbine in Limited division"

Thats pretty impressive running a M1 carbine in Heavy Metal. Most guys run the AR10 or M14 in that division. This was the USPSA Multi Gun Nationals? What was your zero on that?

Naw, it was Limited, rifle scored minor. I shot a Garand in Heavy Metal.
'06 Multigun Nats in Albany, OR. I was adjusting the rear sight up and down during stages, as the bullet drops 46 inches at 350 yards. I distinctly remember forgetting to run the sight down on a stage that featured both 350yd plates and 10yd head shots; I shot right over the heads.

[9x45]

This is what's on the butt stock of my AR15's so I know where to look. (35/300 zero). The top of the yellow triangle is for the Trijicon Accupoint 1-4

[jmorris]

I have not shot every shooting sport there is, but the "major" practical sports do not require that you engage the manual safety on double action pistols.
Even then, it's not really an "extra" step as it's done during the draw stroke, so it doesn't add any time.

There are more than a few that require a "grounded" pistol to be on safe or you get and instant DQ, even if you put it on safe and it got knocked off when you tabled it.

Pistols with no external safeties seem like a good idea about that time.

[9x45]

I have never shot any 3 gun that didn't require full grounding of all 3 weapons. That's why allot of guys that shoot STI's switch to Glocks for 3 gun.

[MarkCO]

There is a smattering of good advice mixed into the responses.

3Gun is NOT about any one platform anymore. It used to be shotgun loading, but we changed that when we introduced the TWinS loading in 2010 and the Quad loading in 2012. Sure, the fast guys are faster, but the gap between the fast guys and the beginner is on the order of 3 to 4 seconds for loading 8 whereas it used to be 10 to 20 seconds. When I started 3Gun, I did it to shoot more rifle, but I hated shotgun and wanted to throw it away after it was empty. I spent a year with Casanova working on loading systems that have made the entry into shotgun easier.

The mantra of 3Gun was shoot the pistol fast, the rifle accurate, load the shotgun and everything in chunks. Over the last 5 years, that has changed and there are now several "styles" of 3Gun. Most have fallen back to pure speed with not a lot of emphasis on accuracy. But there are still matches out there where accuracy is very important.

For the OP, BUY NOTHING. Really! Get to the closest 3Gun local match and talk to the shooters, check out the stage styles and be a sponge. In most cases, you will have someone offer to loan you rifle and shotgun. Buy some ammo and show up next match and take them up on it.

IF you are going to try 3Gun to improve your weapon handling skills for your work, then run your work guns. IF you are doing it as a hobby, start off slow. IF you want to excel to the top tier, then you will want to work on each platform individually, and honestly, you would be better off not shooting 3Gun, but working on pistol skills (in USPSA) for a while.

I train all manner of shooters, from SWAT officers to 8 year olds getting into rimfire and the biggest problem is the lack of fundamentals. The 3Gun crucible invokes adrenaline and the competitive spirit to the point that a lot of new shooters are just bouncing off in the weeds. 3Gun is expensive no matter what. The wrong approach. bad gear, just makes it more so.

You will not find a single top level 3Gun competitor: Horner, Butler, Jordan, Casanova, Garcia, Laker, Miculek, etc. who was not a top level competitor in a single gun action sport before the transfer to 3Gun. There are a few really good 3Gunners who jumped straight into 3Gun and if you ask them, they will admit that they should have stuck with pistol for a while before they jumped into 3Gun. The rifle is what drew me into 3Gun and what has allowed me some success, but I had to go back and learn pistol and shotgun to a much deeper level in order to keep advancing.

If you do podcasts, check out http://3gunshow.com/. Dave is a friend who I helped get started in shooting 3Gun many years ago. He has developed a great resource with top folks in the game that is well worth the time. I think I am on episode 25.

Yes, I shoot an M2, but an M3000 is perfectly fine and about half the cost. A 9mm with 15 round mags (or more) is fine. A $1000 AR (with sights) is fine. Better equipment won't make you better. More dryfire, more ammo and more knowledge will make you better. 3Gun is NOT budget friendly. 3Gun IS about mastery of all three platforms individually, then stringing that all together. 3Gunners are eager to help people into the addiction that is 3Gun, so take advantage of that.

[str8tshot]

To clarify, the M3K and M3000 are different shotguns.

[MarkCO]

Same shotgun, different versions. M3K, P3K, M3000.