Eliminate handgun rise

TXAZ · September 14, 2013, 06:53 PM

I'm sure someone has thought of this before but found nothing on google.
If a gun is produced that lowers the barrel to be in line with the forearm, and sights were elevated much like the AR-15, I believe the rise would be greatly reduced if not eliminated.

So the question is, has anyone tried this, or do you know why it wouldn't work?

pelo801 · September 14, 2013, 07:09 PM

Do you mean like the chiappa rhino?

TXAZ · September 14, 2013, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Do you mean like the chiappa rhino?

No. The rhino line of action is still above the grip.

s4s4u · September 14, 2013, 08:01 PM

Might be a bit tough to IWB.

5.56RifleGuy · September 14, 2013, 08:06 PM

You would get less rise, but it would be less comfortable to fire. Lugers have a pretty low bore axis, and some people I know report greater discomfort shooting them.

dwwhite · September 14, 2013, 08:09 PM

Some of the Olympic style pistols have really low bores, especially those designed for Rapid Fire competitions, but you'll notice that they generally house the magazine out in front of the grip.

Two reasons for this...
Often the ergonomic/anatomical grips are not condusive to housing a magazine,

And the big one, in order to accommodate a reciprocating action, whether its a slide, or bolt, or whatever, and have it low in relation to the hand, the action must be well out in front of the hand.

This is acceptable for a competition gun, but s4s4u stated, it's a little tough to conceal.

DaleA · September 15, 2013, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Some of the Olympic style pistols have really low bores

IIRC there was one that resulted in a rule change that disqualified it from competition.

It was kind of like an upside down semi-automatic so the barrel really did line up with the bottom of your arm. There was a sight rail where the normal barrel would be with a vertical support at the front end that connected the sight rail and the barrel together. To me it looked rather like a hack saw.

tipoc · September 16, 2013, 01:23 AM

Is it along these lines you were thinking?

http://www.handgunsmag.com/files/2012/06/SP1.jpg

http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/06/1...c-pistol-team/

http://www.handgunsmag.com/files/201...ain.php5_.jpeg

http://www.handgunsmag.com/files/201...ini-CM-84E.jpg

tipoc

Bob Wright · September 16, 2013, 12:27 PM

There was a Russian pistol dubbed "The Upsidedown Pistol" and "The Hacksaw Pistol", a .22 autoloader that had the barrel below the hand and a frame for sights. As has been noted rules were quickly drawn up to outlaw it.

Bob Wright

FrankenMauser · September 16, 2013, 03:43 PM

The "Upside Down Gun":
American Rifleman, 2011

DaleA · September 16, 2013, 05:46 PM

FrankenMauser and Bob Wright - Ding Ding Ding! A winner!

That's the gun I remember but I've not been able to find photo's of it. Thanks for the link!

As an aside I think those guns would have a bit of a parallax problem with the sight line so far above the barrel but since the competition shooters shot at a fixed distance I guess it would just be a one time adjustment.

With the goofy stuff going on in the plinker world I'm kind of surprised nobody is marketing one of these for just general use.

FrankenMauser · September 17, 2013, 12:35 AM

Quote:

With the goofy stuff going on in the plinker world I'm kind of surprised nobody is marketing one of these for just general use.

The one in the linked article screams for a little more 'Steam Punk'.

Bob Wright · September 18, 2013, 09:52 AM

Quote:

DaleA said: With the goofy stuff going on in the plinker world I'm kind of surprised nobody is marketing one of these for just general use.

Never handled one nor even saw one in the steel, but from its looks would expect it to be too fragile for "general use."

Bob Wright

craZivn · September 20, 2013, 06:41 PM

I believe the Rhino does in fact qualify, since the bore axis is almost exactly in line with the shooter's arm. I have never fired one, but those who have report that the recoil is "straight back" with practically no muzzle rise.

Unfortunately, lowering the bore axis always seems to necessitate more complicated firing apparati.

Ivan

Andy Blozinski · September 21, 2013, 01:00 AM

I pack a Rhino. The recoil is very different. It's pretty much straight back. The most significant cause of any muzzle climb I have is the 10lb trigger pull.

Ozzieman · September 21, 2013, 08:24 AM

Upside down gun.
Looks like a hack saw that some Saudi Arabia oil king would have made.

Cosmodragoon · September 21, 2013, 04:04 PM

There are important design challenges to doing this. Point with your finger or hold an invisible play gun and watch what your hand does. Extend a force line forward through your radius (the big arm bone behind your thumb and trigger finger). In order to line up the force, the chamber and barrel must be along this extension line. So where is your hand and trigger finger on that line?

Notice that you'd need the chamber out in front of our trigger finger. You would need reliable mechanical apparatus to ignite the primer in line with the chamber. You would also need to feed ammunition, usually meaning a cylinder or magazine attachment out there too. I'm guessing you'd want a little barrel on the end too.

I'm no engineer, but it seems that this would require an awkward distribution of weight. It would be easy enough in a rifle but there you already have other features balancing muzzle rise. I suppose an attached arm brace, maybe like the wiry fold-out stocks on some carbines, could make it work but I think there is a reason that the closest the industry has come is in the Rhino or striker-firing semis with lower barrels.

Cosmodragoon · September 21, 2013, 04:10 PM

Interestingly, this piece approximates the brace idea I was thinking about above. How does it feed though?

BuckRub · September 21, 2013, 10:18 PM

I seen one about six months ago that looked like a Glock design but barrel was about inline with lower arm. I was think how ugly it was but I bet it was a sweet shooter. Can't remember who made it.

September 14, 2013, 06:53 PM	#1
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	Eliminate handgun rise I'm sure someone has thought of this before but found nothing on google. If a gun is produced that lowers the barrel to be in line with the forearm, and sights were elevated much like the AR-15, I believe the rise would be greatly reduced if not eliminated. So the question is, has anyone tried this, or do you know why it wouldn't work? __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

September 14, 2013, 08:06 PM	#5
5.56RifleGuy Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2010 Location: USA Posts: 1,212	You would get less rise, but it would be less comfortable to fire. Lugers have a pretty low bore axis, and some people I know report greater discomfort shooting them. __________________ Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus

September 16, 2013, 03:43 PM	#10
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	The "Upside Down Gun": American Rifleman, 2011 __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

September 21, 2013, 08:24 AM	#16
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	Upside down gun. Looks like a hack saw that some Saudi Arabia oil king would have made. __________________ It was a sad day when I discovered my universal remote control did not in fact control the universe. Did you hear about the latest study.....5 out of 6 liberals say that Russian Roulette is safe.

September 14, 2013, 07:09 PM	#2
pelo801 Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 718	Do you mean like the chiappa rhino?

September 14, 2013, 08:01 PM	#4
s4s4u Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2007 Location: MN Posts: 365	Might be a bit tough to IWB.

September 14, 2013, 08:09 PM	#6
dwwhite Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Location: Southwest Tx Posts: 187	Some of the Olympic style pistols have really low bores, especially those designed for Rapid Fire competitions, but you'll notice that they generally house the magazine out in front of the grip. Two reasons for this... Often the ergonomic/anatomical grips are not condusive to housing a magazine, And the big one, in order to accommodate a reciprocating action, whether its a slide, or bolt, or whatever, and have it low in relation to the hand, the action must be well out in front of the hand. This is acceptable for a competition gun, but s4s4u stated, it's a little tough to conceal.

September 16, 2013, 01:23 AM	#8
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Is it along these lines you were thinking? http://www.handgunsmag.com/files/2012/06/SP1.jpg http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/06/1...c-pistol-team/ http://www.handgunsmag.com/files/201...ain.php5_.jpeg http://www.handgunsmag.com/files/201...ini-CM-84E.jpg tipoc

September 16, 2013, 12:27 PM	#9
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	There was a Russian pistol dubbed "The Upsidedown Pistol" and "The Hacksaw Pistol", a .22 autoloader that had the barrel below the hand and a frame for sights. As has been noted rules were quickly drawn up to outlaw it. Bob Wright

September 16, 2013, 05:46 PM	#11
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	FrankenMauser and Bob Wright - Ding Ding Ding! A winner! That's the gun I remember but I've not been able to find photo's of it. Thanks for the link! As an aside I think those guns would have a bit of a parallax problem with the sight line so far above the barrel but since the competition shooters shot at a fixed distance I guess it would just be a one time adjustment. With the goofy stuff going on in the plinker world I'm kind of surprised nobody is marketing one of these for just general use.

September 20, 2013, 06:41 PM	#14
craZivn Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2013 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 138	I believe the Rhino does in fact qualify, since the bore axis is almost exactly in line with the shooter's arm. I have never fired one, but those who have report that the recoil is "straight back" with practically no muzzle rise. Unfortunately, lowering the bore axis always seems to necessitate more complicated firing apparati. Ivan

September 21, 2013, 01:00 AM	#15
Andy Blozinski Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2013 Posts: 525	I pack a Rhino. The recoil is very different. It's pretty much straight back. The most significant cause of any muzzle climb I have is the 10lb trigger pull.

September 21, 2013, 04:04 PM	#17
Cosmodragoon Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Location: Northeastern US Posts: 1,869	There are important design challenges to doing this. Point with your finger or hold an invisible play gun and watch what your hand does. Extend a force line forward through your radius (the big arm bone behind your thumb and trigger finger). In order to line up the force, the chamber and barrel must be along this extension line. So where is your hand and trigger finger on that line? Notice that you'd need the chamber out in front of our trigger finger. You would need reliable mechanical apparatus to ignite the primer in line with the chamber. You would also need to feed ammunition, usually meaning a cylinder or magazine attachment out there too. I'm guessing you'd want a little barrel on the end too. I'm no engineer, but it seems that this would require an awkward distribution of weight. It would be easy enough in a rifle but there you already have other features balancing muzzle rise. I suppose an attached arm brace, maybe like the wiry fold-out stocks on some carbines, could make it work but I think there is a reason that the closest the industry has come is in the Rhino or striker-firing semis with lower barrels.

September 21, 2013, 04:10 PM	#18
Cosmodragoon Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Location: Northeastern US Posts: 1,869	Interestingly, this piece approximates the brace idea I was thinking about above. How does it feed though?

September 21, 2013, 10:18 PM	#19
BuckRub Junior member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,046	I seen one about six months ago that looked like a Glock design but barrel was about inline with lower arm. I was think how ugly it was but I bet it was a sweet shooter. Can't remember who made it.