Carry Gun Paradigm Shift

doc540 · November 24, 2013, 10:19 AM

cliffs:
XDS in .45 ACP sold after getting it back from the recall (serious trigger issues)

carried the custom Colt CCO for two months - 8 rounds of .45 ACP

One of my firearm mentors convinced me that shot placement trumps caliber. (And I've been a .45 ACP guy.)

Now I am carrying an ugly, sunrise-dependable Gen3, Glock 19.

16 rounds of Barnes all-copper 9mm.

25 cent trigger job = smooth, 5 lb trigger

finis

JERRYS. · November 24, 2013, 10:33 AM

caliber is no substitute for shot placement and more importantly, reliability.

there is nothing wrong with the .45acp, I on rare occasions carry a Kahr PM45.... but that's only because its substantially smaller than a G17.

Tomac · November 24, 2013, 01:13 PM

As I posted on the other forum where you asked this, all handguns are relatively poor stoppers regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary.
That's why I carry a SIG P2022 15+1 9mm w/quality JHP ammo for less recoil, faster followup shots and greater capacity (YMMV).
Tomac

Japle · November 24, 2013, 02:20 PM

Shot placement is, indeed, most important. It’s also super-duper hard to accomplish during a gunfight when everyone is dodging and ducking and shooting as fast as possible from panic-induced positions.

That being said, I usually carry a 9mm loaded with +P+ JHPs.

doc540 · November 24, 2013, 02:23 PM

Japle, that is the truth.

boondocker385 · November 24, 2013, 10:35 PM

The trick is not to panic....and it is heard to practice in a way that simulates that sensation. Practice a lot so that muscle memory and training kick in.
A square range is not much help....try to practice realistic scenarios

One of the tricks used by one firm was to drop flashbangs or big firecrackers on you while doing drills. The fireworks are a cheap alternative and it is nerve wracking for newbies.

That said, reliability is my preference over caliber and quantity.

Double Naught Spy · November 25, 2013, 10:42 AM

You are talking about stress inoculation. If not maintained, it goes away. The shape of the range is of no consequence.

As for shot placement, don't confuse external placement with internal placement. Proper shot external placement requires and is meaningless without the additions of proper trajectory to lead to the internal vital structures you want to disrupt and sufficient penetration to do the damage.

Tactical Jackalope · November 25, 2013, 11:41 AM

+1 with Japle. Especially on the 9mm +p+'s. I love that round.

Rifleman1776 · November 25, 2013, 12:04 PM

IMHO, concealability trumps caliber and most other considerations. In the summer I'm a tee-shirt and shorts guy. No place to conceal a big handgun. I use a pocket pistol. Have two in .22lr and one in .380. Three times in my life I have had to show a gun in self defense (never fired), bad guys never questioned caliber, all were with .22lr.

Tactical Jackalope · November 25, 2013, 12:15 PM

^ That's not enough. What if you had to shoot? .22 won't incapacitate too well at all.

At least stick to the .380 between those two.

boondocker385 · November 25, 2013, 12:58 PM

The square range is a term I heard for static training where you shoot in lanes with no "realism".... sorry thought it was a common term.

boondocker385 · November 25, 2013, 01:01 PM

One more thought. Stress reaction is an interesting thing. I took a couple of "second time around" guys out for training who hadn't been in the mix for over 5 years. Both had ice water in their veins....no flinches, lots of muscle and training memory that kicked in. Surprised me..

BigJimP · November 25, 2013, 05:19 PM

My 2 cents in this ....is everyone who chooses to carry -- should carry the gun they shoot the best...in whatever caliber and capacity they think is important.

Shot placement is the key over caliber in my opinion ....and reliability is critical ...but that depends on a lot of factors ( who made the gun, maintenance, etc )....

My choice of carry weapons has shifted once in a while over the years...( and while once in a while I may carry a K frame 4" S&W revolver 6 rds .357 mag / or a Sig 239 in .40 S&W ( 7 +1) / 99.9 % of the time, I go back to a full sized 1911 - Wilson Combat CQB 5" gun in .45 acp...(8 + 1) ...and it just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...3&d=1226019002
is mine....

and I carry it because its the gun I shoot the best, it's 100% reliable, and shot placement is not a problem because I practice ( with a little pressure from a timer - every week )....

boondocker385 · November 25, 2013, 06:37 PM

One more thought. Stress reaction is an interesting thing. I took a couple of "second time around" guys out for training who hadn't been in the mix for over 5 years. Both had ice water in their veins....no flinches, lots of muscle and training memory that kicked in. Surprised me..

Deaf Smith · November 25, 2013, 06:42 PM

doc540,

I've used Colt Defenders in .45 ACP and +p Cor-Bon 200s. Found impossible to control one handed.

Used S&W TI lite .357s with Cor-Bon 125gr DPX magnums. Found them impossible to control one handed.

Used Marlin .45/70 Guide Guns with hot Buffalo Bore .45/70s. Got tired of being kicked into flinching every shot.

And over the years it dawned on me that while I can take a .45 ACP if it was in 4-5 inch format (all steel), and .357 revolvers if all steel, and even elephant rifles if I used 12 lb guns, I sure could not take those flyweight guns!

Yes I use a Glock 33 .357 Sig, but that and the Glock 27 in .40 are about as much power as I can hang on to and still get good fast hits.

Same for the .30-06. That is about my limit in 7 lb guns.

Your Glock 19 will do excellent work. +p or higher powered 9mm ammo are good loads for defense. Just practice mucho (I do!)

Deaf

chris in va · November 25, 2013, 07:02 PM

Our club matches have a 'weak hand' stage that is a real eye opener. I highly recommend people practice such a scenerio.

Joe_Pike · November 25, 2013, 08:14 PM

I will soon be replacing the beloved 642 with a Glock 26 as a carry gun. More projectiles makes me feel better. The town I live in is getting scarier by the day.

Shooter_Libby · November 26, 2013, 09:47 AM

Interesting mention of summer time carry. I am of the opinion that comfort is a big issue for the average joe out there. The old saying is that your carry gun should be "Comforting, not comfortable", but the fact is that if carrying is a pain in the arse, most people will stop doing it rather quickly. I personally carry the largest caliber (that I am proficient with) I can practically, and comfortably, carry in any given scenario. Sometimes this means carrying my S&W air weight revolver, sometimes it means carrying a full size 1911. I don't think I would be content carrying a .22 like the person above mentioned, however anything is better than nothing at all.

Colt46 · November 26, 2013, 11:57 AM

No real reason other than the .45 makes a slightly bigger hole. A good, realiable 9mm is enough handgun to stake your life on.

Japle · November 26, 2013, 05:33 PM

In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a time when one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.

If I knew there was going to be a gunfight, I’d be 50 miles away in a nice, quiet library reading about gunfights.

I never leave the house without a gun. In the summer (most of the year here in Florida) I carry a PF9 in a Remora IWB holster. In the winter, I carry an XDm 3.8 9mm with the full-size, 20 round grip frame. When I wear a Tux (pretty often) I wear a P3AT in a Remora IWB under my cummerbund.

And I always carry a stun gun. That’s a lesson I learned from George Zimmerman.

doc540 · November 26, 2013, 06:41 PM

Deaf Smith, I appreciate your perspective.

Deaf Smith · November 26, 2013, 11:17 PM

Thanks Doc.

My Glocks are all Gen 3 Glocks to.

Just found today a good friend of mine had a Glock 19 for IDPA. His sights were made by Trijicon. The front sight, while tritium, was also orange! Glows real good in the dark and the orange is easy to pick up in the daylight.

Only catch was, $200! Yea that was alot.

May I also recommend AACK .22 lr. units for the Glock? Mine is for the Glock 26. Works perfect with Remington Golden bullets and CCI mini-mags.

And if you want to fast draw (or as they say 'presentation') practice alot, get a all metal Glock 19, like they use to make holsters, and at home you can do alot of gun handling without any possibility of an accidental discharge.

And one more thing for practice. LaserLyte!

http://www.laserlyte.com/

But do put a sandbag behind the targets just in chase a real bullet somehow gets in the gun!

Deaf

doc540 · November 26, 2013, 11:33 PM

good info, thanks

I practice using the ATP airsoft pistol that I use in my beginner's safety classes.

weighs about the same, too

jabba21 · November 27, 2013, 12:41 AM

Doc, I'm not sure if you posted about it in another thread, but what didn't you like about the XDs trigger after you got it back?

doc540 · November 27, 2013, 11:06 AM

excellent question

guess I was one of the unlucky ones

came back with an 8lb 10oz trigger

After dry firing and polishing it only came down to 7lbs, 12oz.

It was spongy, and the stacking was inconsistent.

To make matters worse, it didn't break until it was almost touching the rear of the trigger guard.

Final straw was my gunsmith's verdict that the spring design, not the spring tension, made it "unfixable", to use a blunt object word.

I was really disappointed since I liked carrying it and liked shooting it even more.

November 24, 2013, 10:19 AM	#1
doc540 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 1,430	Carry Gun Paradigm Shift cliffs: XDS in .45 ACP sold after getting it back from the recall (serious trigger issues) carried the custom Colt CCO for two months - 8 rounds of .45 ACP One of my firearm mentors convinced me that shot placement trumps caliber. (And I've been a .45 ACP guy.) Now I am carrying an ugly, sunrise-dependable Gen3, Glock 19. 16 rounds of Barnes all-copper 9mm. 25 cent trigger job = smooth, 5 lb trigger finis __________________ Shooting more, typing less

November 24, 2013, 01:13 PM	#3
Tomac Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Caldwell, Idaho Posts: 511	As I posted on the other forum where you asked this, all handguns are relatively poor stoppers regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. That's why I carry a SIG P2022 15+1 9mm w/quality JHP ammo for less recoil, faster followup shots and greater capacity (YMMV). Tomac __________________ "His Universe, His rules." - Tomac

November 24, 2013, 02:23 PM	#5
doc540 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 1,430	Japle, that is the truth. __________________ Shooting more, typing less

November 24, 2013, 10:35 PM	#6
boondocker385 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2013 Posts: 640	The trick is not to panic....and it is heard to practice in a way that simulates that sensation. Practice a lot so that muscle memory and training kick in. A square range is not much help....try to practice realistic scenarios One of the tricks used by one firm was to drop flashbangs or big firecrackers on you while doing drills. The fireworks are a cheap alternative and it is nerve wracking for newbies. That said, reliability is my preference over caliber and quantity. __________________ No second place finishes in a gun fight.

November 25, 2013, 10:42 AM	#7
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	You are talking about stress inoculation. If not maintained, it goes away. The shape of the range is of no consequence. As for shot placement, don't confuse external placement with internal placement. Proper shot external placement requires and is meaningless without the additions of proper trajectory to lead to the internal vital structures you want to disrupt and sufficient penetration to do the damage. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

November 24, 2013, 10:33 AM	#2
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,969	caliber is no substitute for shot placement and more importantly, reliability. there is nothing wrong with the .45acp, I on rare occasions carry a Kahr PM45.... but that's only because its substantially smaller than a G17.

November 24, 2013, 02:20 PM	#4
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	Shot placement is, indeed, most important. It’s also super-duper hard to accomplish during a gunfight when everyone is dodging and ducking and shooting as fast as possible from panic-induced positions. That being said, I usually carry a 9mm loaded with +P+ JHPs.

November 25, 2013, 11:41 AM	#8
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	+1 with Japle. Especially on the 9mm +p+'s. I love that round.

November 25, 2013, 12:04 PM	#9
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	IMHO, concealability trumps caliber and most other considerations. In the summer I'm a tee-shirt and shorts guy. No place to conceal a big handgun. I use a pocket pistol. Have two in .22lr and one in .380. Three times in my life I have had to show a gun in self defense (never fired), bad guys never questioned caliber, all were with .22lr.

November 25, 2013, 12:15 PM	#10
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	^ That's not enough. What if you had to shoot? .22 won't incapacitate too well at all. At least stick to the .380 between those two.

November 25, 2013, 12:58 PM	#11
boondocker385 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2013 Posts: 640	The square range is a term I heard for static training where you shoot in lanes with no "realism".... sorry thought it was a common term. __________________ No second place finishes in a gun fight.

November 25, 2013, 01:01 PM	#12
boondocker385 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2013 Posts: 640	One more thought. Stress reaction is an interesting thing. I took a couple of "second time around" guys out for training who hadn't been in the mix for over 5 years. Both had ice water in their veins....no flinches, lots of muscle and training memory that kicked in. Surprised me.. __________________ No second place finishes in a gun fight.

November 25, 2013, 05:19 PM	#13
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	My 2 cents in this ....is everyone who chooses to carry -- should carry the gun they shoot the best...in whatever caliber and capacity they think is important. Shot placement is the key over caliber in my opinion ....and reliability is critical ...but that depends on a lot of factors ( who made the gun, maintenance, etc ).... My choice of carry weapons has shifted once in a while over the years...( and while once in a while I may carry a K frame 4" S&W revolver 6 rds .357 mag / or a Sig 239 in .40 S&W ( 7 +1) / 99.9 % of the time, I go back to a full sized 1911 - Wilson Combat CQB 5" gun in .45 acp...(8 + 1) ...and it just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy... http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...3&d=1226019002 is mine.... and I carry it because its the gun I shoot the best, it's 100% reliable, and shot placement is not a problem because I practice ( with a little pressure from a timer - every week )....

November 25, 2013, 06:37 PM	#14
boondocker385 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2013 Posts: 640	One more thought. Stress reaction is an interesting thing. I took a couple of "second time around" guys out for training who hadn't been in the mix for over 5 years. Both had ice water in their veins....no flinches, lots of muscle and training memory that kicked in. Surprised me.. __________________ No second place finishes in a gun fight.

November 25, 2013, 06:42 PM	#15
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	doc540, I've used Colt Defenders in .45 ACP and +p Cor-Bon 200s. Found impossible to control one handed. Used S&W TI lite .357s with Cor-Bon 125gr DPX magnums. Found them impossible to control one handed. Used Marlin .45/70 Guide Guns with hot Buffalo Bore .45/70s. Got tired of being kicked into flinching every shot. And over the years it dawned on me that while I can take a .45 ACP if it was in 4-5 inch format (all steel), and .357 revolvers if all steel, and even elephant rifles if I used 12 lb guns, I sure could not take those flyweight guns! Yes I use a Glock 33 .357 Sig, but that and the Glock 27 in .40 are about as much power as I can hang on to and still get good fast hits. Same for the .30-06. That is about my limit in 7 lb guns. Your Glock 19 will do excellent work. +p or higher powered 9mm ammo are good loads for defense. Just practice mucho (I do!) Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

November 25, 2013, 07:02 PM	#16
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Our club matches have a 'weak hand' stage that is a real eye opener. I highly recommend people practice such a scenerio.

November 25, 2013, 08:14 PM	#17
Joe_Pike Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2010 Posts: 1,581	I will soon be replacing the beloved 642 with a Glock 26 as a carry gun. More projectiles makes me feel better. The town I live in is getting scarier by the day. __________________ Stay Groovy

November 26, 2013, 09:47 AM	#18
Shooter_Libby Junior Member Join Date: August 7, 2013 Location: Kentucky Posts: 10	Interesting mention of summer time carry. I am of the opinion that comfort is a big issue for the average joe out there. The old saying is that your carry gun should be "Comforting, not comfortable", but the fact is that if carrying is a pain in the arse, most people will stop doing it rather quickly. I personally carry the largest caliber (that I am proficient with) I can practically, and comfortably, carry in any given scenario. Sometimes this means carrying my S&W air weight revolver, sometimes it means carrying a full size 1911. I don't think I would be content carrying a .22 like the person above mentioned, however anything is better than nothing at all.

November 26, 2013, 11:57 AM	#19
Colt46 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: Campbell Ca Posts: 1,090	Not a fan of the 9mm No real reason other than the .45 makes a slightly bigger hole. A good, realiable 9mm is enough handgun to stake your life on.

November 26, 2013, 05:33 PM	#20
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a time when one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo. If I knew there was going to be a gunfight, I’d be 50 miles away in a nice, quiet library reading about gunfights. I never leave the house without a gun. In the summer (most of the year here in Florida) I carry a PF9 in a Remora IWB holster. In the winter, I carry an XDm 3.8 9mm with the full-size, 20 round grip frame. When I wear a Tux (pretty often) I wear a P3AT in a Remora IWB under my cummerbund. And I always carry a stun gun. That’s a lesson I learned from George Zimmerman.

November 26, 2013, 06:41 PM	#21
doc540 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 1,430	Deaf Smith, I appreciate your perspective. __________________ Shooting more, typing less

November 26, 2013, 11:17 PM	#22
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	Thanks Doc. My Glocks are all Gen 3 Glocks to. Just found today a good friend of mine had a Glock 19 for IDPA. His sights were made by Trijicon. The front sight, while tritium, was also orange! Glows real good in the dark and the orange is easy to pick up in the daylight. Only catch was, $200! Yea that was alot. May I also recommend AACK .22 lr. units for the Glock? Mine is for the Glock 26. Works perfect with Remington Golden bullets and CCI mini-mags. And if you want to fast draw (or as they say 'presentation') practice alot, get a all metal Glock 19, like they use to make holsters, and at home you can do alot of gun handling without any possibility of an accidental discharge. And one more thing for practice. LaserLyte! http://www.laserlyte.com/ But do put a sandbag behind the targets just in chase a real bullet somehow gets in the gun! Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

November 26, 2013, 11:33 PM	#23
doc540 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 1,430	good info, thanks I practice using the ATP airsoft pistol that I use in my beginner's safety classes. weighs about the same, too __________________ Shooting more, typing less

November 27, 2013, 12:41 AM	#24
jabba21 Member Join Date: January 22, 2013 Location: Kentucky Posts: 82	Doc, I'm not sure if you posted about it in another thread, but what didn't you like about the XDs trigger after you got it back? __________________ matthewweddle.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/user/jabba42642

November 27, 2013, 11:06 AM	#25
doc540 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 1,430	excellent question guess I was one of the unlucky ones came back with an 8lb 10oz trigger After dry firing and polishing it only came down to 7lbs, 12oz. It was spongy, and the stacking was inconsistent. To make matters worse, it didn't break until it was almost touching the rear of the trigger guard. Final straw was my gunsmith's verdict that the spring design, not the spring tension, made it "unfixable", to use a blunt object word. I was really disappointed since I liked carrying it and liked shooting it even more. __________________ Shooting more, typing less