38spc 357 accurracy

[gspman]

hello everyone. I have been viewing this forum for quite awhile. enjoy it lots.I purchased a ruger gp100 4" about ayear ago.Been tailoring loads for it ever since.Using 158gr bullets cast and jacketed i have found that the 357 loads are quite a bit more accurate than the 38spl loads.I have tried 5 different powders in the 38spc case at different load levels. tried to get a few loads that would shoot close to same point of impact.I am getting 1" to1.5" with 357 loads with 2400 and unique.tried unique bullseye hp38 hs6 trailboss powders.also tried herco powder. was wondering if others had same experience with accuracy difference between cases.thinkingof doingall shooting with 357 brass as others have commented on his forum to eliminate fire ring in cylinder. Your comments on your experience with this will be apreciated. gspman

[Scorch]

Since your pistol is chambered for 357, I do not doubt that 357s ar emore accurate. A 38 Special load has to jump the space between the end of the case and the forcing cone in order to get to the barrel. The 357 load is closer to the forcing cone. That gives it an edge.

Just load 357 cases for target and full-house loads. I use different bullets in mine so I can tell the difference at a glance (cast lead vs jacketed).

[gspman]

I realize there is a longer jump to the forcing cone,but am surprised at the difference in accuracy.best groups can get are arround 3".trailboss seems to be the most accurate @ 4.2grns.havent tried trialboss in a 357 case yet,that is my next load i am going to try.just wondering if others are seeing this in 357 38spcl 44mag 44spcl.

[salvadore]

You just made that up dincha scorch? Is my 358156 crimped in the bottom groove in a .38 case that much further away from the forcing cone than one crimped in the top groove in a .357? The accuracy difference in .357s using .38 cases may not be a myth, but it is overstated gospel along with the gasp shudder inability to chamber .357s in revolvers that have had .38s run thru them. I shoot dirty ol' lead 99% of the time...more really... and have never been unable to chamber a .357 round, not that the opportunity comes up very often. I think it is an overstated old wives tale with just a hint of fact.

[zippy13]

Greetings gspman, and welcome aboard,

You wrote…

I have tried 5 different powders in the 38spc case at different load levels. tried to get a few loads that would shoot close to same point of impact.

I can't tell from that, do you mean the .38s won't give you a decent group, or you want the .38s to have the same point of impact as the .357s? I hope you're not expecting to get the .38s to print on the same point as the fully loaded .357s.

To ease your frustration, how about starting over with a fresh approach? Put aside your 158 gr bullets, get some 148 gr target LWCs (MidwayUSA has Rem's at $37/500) and load some traditional, tried-and-true, mid-range rounds: 2.7 gr of Bullseye in the .38 cases and 2.8 in the .357s. Then go punch paper from a rest. Hopefully you'll be pleasantly surprised and regain confidence in the Ruger and yourself. Then you can start over with the 158s and work your way up to service loads.

Good luck

[Sidewinder72]

I never got the accuracy out of the 357 till near max. loadings. You shure wouldn't want to load 38's like that. I only use 38's in a 38 revolver, not in the 357. Just me.

[SL1]

I don't think that the "jump" that matters is all the way to the forcing cone. The .38s need to jump to get a full-diameter part of the bullet into the chamber throat, while the .357s start with a full-diameter part of the bullet in the throat already. That means that the .357s are better aligned before they are fired. This alignment difference is probably what creates an accuracy difference between a .357 and .38 case loaded with the same bullets and charge weights of the same powder that produce similar velocities from the two cases.

I have noticed that I can get most bullets to shoot best if I get a part of the bullet that is full-diameter to rest in the chamber throat. So, even when I load wadcutters, I seat them out past flush with the case mouth to achieve that alignment. In tests that I made long ago, it seemed to make a difference, but not so much as the OP described for his loads. I can only speculate that the effect is larger for guns with bigger chamber diameters, which would increase the initial misalignment.

SL1

[okiefarmer308]

I missed how far you are shooting to go from a 1 1/2" group with 357 to a 3-4" group with 38? Just curious,never really had that happen at close range. I did buy a Dan Wesson surplus from a prison that had been shot exclusively with 38 special. Had a visible ring in the cylinder that if you forced a 357 into--well it was not any fun getting it out. Nothing a brass brush and solvent did not take care of tho.Keep them clean and it shouldn't happen.

[longranger]

Junk the .38 Spec.brass for the .357 and put your .38 loads in the .357 brass.The chamber throat can cause accuracy problems you have described.The shorter .38 Spec. brass requires the bullet jump the gap at the cylinder throat and the forcing cone.It is helpful to know the dia. of each cylinder as well.You will be surprised how much difference there can be from one chamber to another.It is more important to have bullets sized to the cylinder throat not the bore of the barrel.

[salvadore]

SL-1 is right about the jump to the throat, which can be massaged in .38 cases with many cast bullets. Don't know about jacketed bullets, as I seldom use them and am not sure they will catch on anyway. Seating WCs out closer to the throats is another excellent practice.

"I never got the accuracy out of the 357 till near max. loadings. You shure wouldn't want to load 38's like that. I only use 38's in a 38 revolver, not in the 357. Just me."

Why not? I load .38 cases up past 30,000 CUPs all the time. There is nothing magical about a .357 headstamp. There is a lot of once fired .38 brass out there cheap, (free).

Finally, people who fear accidentally putting hot loaded .38s in their D frames, or old Smiths might want to take up another sport, there are all kinds of things that can cause catastrophic failures and I take full responsibility for my actions.

wow...thanks for letting me vent..if I smoked I would probably light up now.

[gspman]

Thanks for the input guys.I have been shooting off a rest at 25yds.I beleive sl1 hit the nail on the head with the alignment comment.that is the only variable that i changed .I have thought about trying full wadcutters but would like to try them before buying 500of them.I'll get a sample pack with my next missouri bullet order.I know others have had success with them.As for my point of impact goal, i was hopping to get the 38s to shoot light loads accurately to a point not far from my 357 loads.so that my hold would not be lots different is all.Along with what sl1 said about allignment i now realize that my top end loads with a oregon trail laser cast 158rnfp shoots the best of all the bullets i have tried.It carrys its diameter very close to nose. verry blunt bullet.very interesting:Now i think i know why you can find boat loads of 38spl brass at gun shows and very little 357 brass at gunshows.Iam going to try 38spl loads in my 357 brass and see what i can do.thanks again.gspman

[FullCry]

Ruger Security Six 357,4 inch barrel, fully adjustable sights shooting Wal mart Winchester 38 specials. 110 yds. sitting in my old 78 k-10 4wd hunting truck.In the driver seat and the door was the rest. Single actioned all six into a paper pie plate I had tacked on the big ol oak tree in the middle of the cow pasture. I wonder if 357 mag. rounds would have done better in this situation?

[Unclenick]

Gspman,

Revolvers often need a bit of attention to do their best with cast bullets. The fact it takes hot loads to get accuracy suggests you are needing enough pressure to bump them up to get past a couple of common problems.

First, slug your bore and chambers. Not only are irregular chambers common, so are constrictions in the bore where a revolver barrel screws into the frame. You want to remove any constriction by fire lapping or hand lapping or by returning the gun to Ruger with a complaint and let them handle it. The cylinder chambers all need to be bigger than the groove diameter of your bore, so you want to measure slugs put through the bore and through the chambers with a micrometer to make sure you have at least half a thousandth over groove diameter on the chamber throats and that the throats are even.

You can remove the cylinder and send it to be reamed even. Cylindersmith.com will do it. Ruger did it free for me on a Redhawk I sent them years ago with an accuracy complaint, but it costs more to send a gun to the factory now than to send the cylinder somewhere by itself and pay for the work. I don't know if Ruger would let you just send them the cylinder or not? Reaming all cylinders to SAAMI maximum used to be the first step revolver smiths took in doing an accuracy job, so don't be afraid of it.

Another strategy is to use cast bullets 0.002" over groove diameter rather than the usual 0.001" over. If the bullets are too hard to bump up, that often handles the seal problem without the bump. Some outfits like Beartooth Bullets will size to your requested diameter. You can do it casting your own, of course. The Lee tumble lube bullet molds usually cast in that size range and, in my .38 and .357's have proven to be the most accurate cast bullets I've ever shot.

Note that the above factors seldom affect jacketed bullets much. That's why manufacturers don't worry about them as much as we might like.