ATF Project Gunrunner - Page 82

alloy · February 17, 2012, 04:58 PM

There seems to be several versions of this deal floating around JimPage, maybe it is time to write a few new letters to my reps.
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...#ixzz1maUT3cBo
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogsp...et-silent.html

HarrySchell · February 17, 2012, 06:09 PM

Why would Obama, or someone in his cadre, want to use fed funds to run more guns, have ATF or other federal personnel commit felony violations of gun laws? And to whom?" US gangs, this time?

I may be venturing off-topic, but it is stunning to me this language is in Obama's budget without all kinds of people going into low-earth orbit.

F+F has evolved into something so close to the Reichstag Fire of 1935(?), any civil libertarian on any side of any aisle should be enraged past redemption that Obama wants the liberty to to do it again. He has a great knack for picking failed ideas of the past and doubling down on them, but this is pretty incredible even for DC. Maybe with what has been learned, they think they can do it without getting caught next time?

Are covert ops planned requiring felony violations of other laws by federal personnel, for other political objectives Obama and/or cadre find attractive and useful? And what so far in F+F makes anyone say, "Nah, they wouldn't do THAT."

jimpeel · February 17, 2012, 06:36 PM

I don't understand. Where does it say in Sec. 8017 that M-1s etc. will be destroyed?

Quote:

[SEC. 8017. None of the funds available to the Department of Defense may be used to demilitarize or dispose of M-1 Carbines, M-1 Garand rifles, M-14 rifles, .22 caliber rifles, .30 caliber rifles, or M-1911 pistols, or to demilitarize or destroy small arms ammunition or ammunition components that are not otherwise prohibited from commercial sale under Federal law, unless the small arms ammunition or ammunition components are certified by the Secretary of the Army or designee as unserviceable or unsafe for further use.]

(emphasis mine)

Does "dispose of" mean selling them on the open market? No funds would be necessary to support such sales as the funds from the sales would more than pay for the administration of such sales without using any budgetary funds.

alan · February 17, 2012, 08:00 PM

jimpeel

As to the meaning of "dispose" as used in what you posted, I should think that that means to "demilitarize"as with to destroy, or render unusable for their intended original purpose. Of course, given that I still believe that 2 + 2 = 4, I might well be wrong.

As to The Secretary of Defense or his "designee", given that the "designee" serves at the pleasure of The Secretary, The Secretary also a political appointee, serving at the pleasure of the president, who knows what might "please" the president, what either of these worthies might certify, or be brought to "certify" could be something of that proverbial open question.

Then there is always the possibility that I'm simply overly suspicious.

alan · February 17, 2012, 08:07 PM

Bartholomew Roberts wrote, asking at the end, "Who did that? Gnomes?"

Quote:
Essentially, buried within the budget is language to repeal the prohibition of using founds to walk guns, that was passed in the Oct. budget, passed last year.
Hmmm, so President Obama, AG Holder, Lanny Breuer, Dennis Burke, the House Oversight Committee, etc. - in short practically every person in the government, regardless of what branch of government or party has said that gun walking is fatally flawed, horrible practice that should never, ever happen...

Yet someone decided to strip the law that forbids it from happening again out of the proposed Presidential budget? Who did that? Gnomes?

-------------------------

Likely the same people who insert those "little noticed" clauses and paragraphs that find their way into pieces of "omnibus legislation". Think the budget proposal wo8ld qualify as an "omnibus" proposal?

alan · February 17, 2012, 08:12 PM

Re HarrySchell in post# 2025, it might well be that Obama turns out to be, respecting constitutional rights, one of the most dangerous men to have ever occupied in The White House, as President of this country.

gc70 · February 17, 2012, 08:17 PM

Response to post #2026 moved to Obama's Anti-Gun Budget Bill thread.

armoredman · February 17, 2012, 08:52 PM

No more Lake City once fired brass for sale. No more DCM/CMP guns or ammo. Captain Crunch fired up once again. Irreplaceable pieces of history turned into manhole covers.

**Tom Servo** · February 17, 2012, 11:49 PM

Quote:

it might well be that Obama turns out to be, respecting constitutional rights, one of the most dangerous men to have ever occupied in The White House, as President of this country.

Let's be careful to keep this related to guns, and not drift into straight politics.

alan · February 18, 2012, 12:39 AM

Tom Servo:

Re my reference to "constitutional rights", perhaps I should have been more specific, but I was referencing the constitutional rights to arms, rights that can be undermined in more ways than one. Obama approaches his hearts delight, undermining gun rights in any number of ways, including via indirection or "through the backdoor".

jimpeel · February 21, 2012, 02:02 AM

Washington Times' Emily Miller NRA video interview on Fast and Furious and the Obama budget.

VIDEO LINK

alan · February 22, 2012, 12:13 AM

Re the quote, see white box, contained in post # 2016 by Al Norris about Obama using his budget to advance an anti-gun agenda, while the reporter actually noticing this factor, in anyone surprised?

Old Smoker · February 22, 2012, 12:25 AM

Does anyone know when the next hearings will be and has Holder responded to turning over the 70k plus documents to the committee yet?

alan · February 22, 2012, 07:47 PM

jimpeel mentioned the following:

Washington Times' Emily Miller NRA video interview on Fast and Furious and the Obama budget.

VIDEO LINK

I just finished listening to Ms. Miller at the video link. The lady was, at times, somewhat difficult to understand, lousy speakers on my old desktop, combined with damaged hearing, the result of exposure to industrial noise and gun fire over a period of years, but what she had to say was most interesting, an should be heard by one and all, whether or not they are gun owners.

Anyhow, having heard Ms. Miller, one is given recall admonitions about not waking the sleeping giant, in the vernacular that was China. In this case, that sleeping giant MIGHT turn out to be The Fourth Estate, unlikely as that might seem.

Thank you Jim.

Ben Towe · February 23, 2012, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Anyhow, having heard Ms. Miller, one is given recall admonitions about not waking the sleeping giant, in the vernacular that was China. In this case, that sleeping giant MIGHT turn out to be The Fourth Estate, unlikely as that might seem.

You could be onto something there. They may be rabidly anti-gun on the whole, but many of them are viciously opposed to corruption as well. Besides, nothing gets ratings like a big juicy scandal.

Bartholomew Roberts · February 23, 2012, 01:13 PM

Sharyl Attkisson with CBS News is reporting that the murder of ICE agent Jaime Zapata has been definitively linked to weapons from a non-Fast & Furious ATF undercover operation.

Apparently, ATF was watching TWO separate traffickers and weapons from both traffickers subsequently ended up in Mexico at the murder scene of Jaime Zapata.

Dave Workman at the Examiner is saying that Sen. Grassley is not at all pleased with this report since he has been asking DOJ for information related to the death of Agent Zapata for almost a year now and been stonewalled. The Zapata family was also apparently not informed of this link and was not told of the ATF connection or asked to give a victim impact statement at the trial of either trafficker. They apparently heard about it from CBS calling them for comment.

**Tom Servo** · February 23, 2012, 01:22 PM

So, Barba gets 100 months, which translates into just over 8 years, for weapons trafficking. I thought the minimum was 10 years.

IIRC, that's the worst sentence anyone's been handed down in this whole situation. Some only received probation.

KyJim · February 23, 2012, 10:53 PM

This latest from CBS News is just amazing. Holder had to know about this prosecution while he was testifying to Congress; yet he doesn't mention it. If he claims he didn't know, more proof of incompetence. Nobody could be that incompetent, IMO.

alan · February 24, 2012, 12:10 AM

Ben Towe, after quoting a portion of my post offered the following:

Quote:
Anyhow, having heard Ms. Miller, one is given recall admonitions about not waking the sleeping giant, in the vernacular that was China. In this case, that sleeping giant MIGHT turn out to be The Fourth Estate, unlikely as that might seem.

You could be onto something there. They may be rabidly anti-gun on the whole, but many of them are viciously opposed to corruption as well. Besides, nothing gets ratings like a big juicy scandal.
-------------------------------------

Re the "big, juicy scandal" he mentions, point taken. Just think how much juicer, how much bigger the scandal of Operation Fast & Furious, along with its' ongoing coverup would be if media gave up singing its' usual anti gun dirge and really concentrated on the twin scandals of Operation Fast & Furious, and its' cover-up. I suspect a whole lot bigger and a whole lot juicer.

Bartholomew Roberts · February 24, 2012, 09:08 AM

The really ironic thing is that all these anti-gun organizations claim to be concerned about gun violence; but yet aren't the least bit outraged or upset to find that ATF is directing firearms to violent criminals. You would think that if they were really concerned about gun violence they would be just as upset as we are.

From my perspective, it seems like they see arming violent criminals as a small price to pay if it means they can disarm the vast majority of us who never hurt a soul with our firearms.

C0untZer0 · February 24, 2012, 09:55 AM

Two weeks ago when Janet Napolitano appeared before Congress to answer questions about the budget, and was asked about the murder of Jaime Zapata - she didn't already know that F&F guns were used to kill agent Zapata ???

I highly doubt it...

HIGHLY DOUBT IT !!! It didn't happen a month ago... It happened a year ago !

Quote:

She said she could not rule out the possibility that Fast and Furious guns were tied to Zapata’s slaying.

“‘It’s possible’, is what you’re saying?” McCaul asked.

“I just don’t know one way or another,” Napolitano answered.

“So you can’t conclusively say one way or the other whether there’s a link to these weapons and Fast & Furious?” asked McCaul.

“That’s true,” Napolitano responded.

Yet seemingly irritated after repeated questions on the subject she simply added: “I didn’t know this was a Fast and Furious hearing.”

So many liars in this administration it's sickening.

http://blog.chron.com/txpotomac/2012...ous-gun-sting/

Bartholomew Roberts · February 24, 2012, 10:20 AM

Quote:

she didn't already know that F&F guns were used to kill agent Zapata ???

That is the other big aspect of that. Those were not Fast & Furious guns that killed Agent Zapata. Instead, they were guns from TWO SEPARATE ATF investigations that took place outside the Phoenix office of the ATF.

So we now know there are at least two more ATF investigations outside of Fast & Furious/Phoenix where guns under ATF surveillance ended up in Mexico at the murder scene of a U.S. law enforcement officer. How many guns were lost/walked in those investigations? If gunwalking is such a horrible, flawed tactic, why are we not interested in what appears to be solid evidence of additional gun walking? Why is the DOJ stonewalling on the death of Agent Zapata; much as they initially lied concerning the death of Agent Terry?

Those would be great questions for someone besides CBS News to ask.

C0untZer0 · February 24, 2012, 11:01 AM

I see, Rep Michael McCaul specifically said "Fast and Furious".

He should have said "BATFE gunrunning operations..."

C0untZer0 · February 24, 2012, 11:35 AM

Rep Michael McCaul's questions begin at 39 minutes:

http://www.c-span.org/Events/Secreta...10737428328-1/

It's very short, but I think McCaul is trying to establish a connection - there was an ICE agent assigned to F&F. Originally it was Ed Hammel, later it was Layne France.

They attended meetings but never heard anything? Did these guys never make reports? Never give status updates?

There is also the issue of the replacement of Ed Hamel with Layne France to work alongside ATF in the operation. Suppodedly Ed Hamel raised objections - I'd love to know if those were written objects.

Janet seems to have pausible deniability and really hasn't come under scrutiny, but as more and more information comes to light, I have to ask how she could not know about F&F.

She had an agent working alongside BATFE on F&F !!

Who yanked Ed Hamel when he raised objections? That was done without her knowledge?

Bartholomew Roberts · February 24, 2012, 11:55 AM

Not only that; but Dennis Burke, the U. S. Attorney in Phoenix and thus far, the highest ranking figure forced to resign over Fast and Furious (as well as being the person DOJ threw under the bus for lying to Congress in the initial response letter) is Napolitano's former Chief-of-Staff.

February 17, 2012, 06:09 PM	#2027
HarrySchell Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2007 Location: South CA Posts: 566	Why would Obama, or someone in his cadre, want to use fed funds to run more guns, have ATF or other federal personnel commit felony violations of gun laws? And to whom?" US gangs, this time? I may be venturing off-topic, but it is stunning to me this language is in Obama's budget without all kinds of people going into low-earth orbit. F+F has evolved into something so close to the Reichstag Fire of 1935(?), any civil libertarian on any side of any aisle should be enraged past redemption that Obama wants the liberty to to do it again. He has a great knack for picking failed ideas of the past and doubling down on them, but this is pretty incredible even for DC. Maybe with what has been learned, they think they can do it without getting caught next time? Are covert ops planned requiring felony violations of other laws by federal personnel, for other political objectives Obama and/or cadre find attractive and useful? And what so far in F+F makes anyone say, "Nah, they wouldn't do THAT." __________________ Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world — and never will. — Mark Twain

February 17, 2012, 08:17 PM	#2032
gc70 Senior Member Join Date: May 24, 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,903	Response to post #2026 moved to Obama's Anti-Gun Budget Bill thread. Last edited by gc70; February 17, 2012 at 09:12 PM.

February 21, 2012, 02:02 AM	#2036
jimpeel Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: Longmont, CO, USA Posts: 4,530	Washington Times' Emily Miller NRA video interview on Fast and Furious and the Obama budget. VIDEO LINK __________________ Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

February 23, 2012, 01:22 PM	#2042
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	So, Barba gets 100 months, which translates into just over 8 years, for weapons trafficking. I thought the minimum was 10 years. IIRC, that's the worst sentence anyone's been handed down in this whole situation. Some only received probation. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

February 17, 2012, 08:00 PM	#2029
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	jimpeel As to the meaning of "dispose" as used in what you posted, I should think that that means to "demilitarize"as with to destroy, or render unusable for their intended original purpose. Of course, given that I still believe that 2 + 2 = 4, I might well be wrong. As to The Secretary of Defense or his "designee", given that the "designee" serves at the pleasure of The Secretary, The Secretary also a political appointee, serving at the pleasure of the president, who knows what might "please" the president, what either of these worthies might certify, or be brought to "certify" could be something of that proverbial open question. Then there is always the possibility that I'm simply overly suspicious.

February 17, 2012, 08:07 PM	#2030
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Bartholomew Roberts wrote, asking at the end, "Who did that? Gnomes?" Quote: Essentially, buried within the budget is language to repeal the prohibition of using founds to walk guns, that was passed in the Oct. budget, passed last year. Hmmm, so President Obama, AG Holder, Lanny Breuer, Dennis Burke, the House Oversight Committee, etc. - in short practically every person in the government, regardless of what branch of government or party has said that gun walking is fatally flawed, horrible practice that should never, ever happen... Yet someone decided to strip the law that forbids it from happening again out of the proposed Presidential budget? Who did that? Gnomes? ------------------------- Likely the same people who insert those "little noticed" clauses and paragraphs that find their way into pieces of "omnibus legislation". Think the budget proposal wo8ld qualify as an "omnibus" proposal?

February 17, 2012, 08:12 PM	#2031
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Re HarrySchell in post# 2025, it might well be that Obama turns out to be, respecting constitutional rights, one of the most dangerous men to have ever occupied in The White House, as President of this country.

February 17, 2012, 08:52 PM	#2033
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	No more Lake City once fired brass for sale. No more DCM/CMP guns or ammo. Captain Crunch fired up once again. Irreplaceable pieces of history turned into manhole covers.

February 18, 2012, 12:39 AM	#2035
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Tom Servo: Re my reference to "constitutional rights", perhaps I should have been more specific, but I was referencing the constitutional rights to arms, rights that can be undermined in more ways than one. Obama approaches his hearts delight, undermining gun rights in any number of ways, including via indirection or "through the backdoor".

February 22, 2012, 12:13 AM	#2037
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Re the quote, see white box, contained in post # 2016 by Al Norris about Obama using his budget to advance an anti-gun agenda, while the reporter actually noticing this factor, in anyone surprised?

February 22, 2012, 12:25 AM	#2038
Old Smoker Member Join Date: June 11, 2009 Location: Northren Wisconsin Posts: 63	Does anyone know when the next hearings will be and has Holder responded to turning over the 70k plus documents to the committee yet?

February 22, 2012, 07:47 PM	#2039
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	jimpeel mentioned the following: Washington Times' Emily Miller NRA video interview on Fast and Furious and the Obama budget. VIDEO LINK I just finished listening to Ms. Miller at the video link. The lady was, at times, somewhat difficult to understand, lousy speakers on my old desktop, combined with damaged hearing, the result of exposure to industrial noise and gun fire over a period of years, but what she had to say was most interesting, an should be heard by one and all, whether or not they are gun owners. Anyhow, having heard Ms. Miller, one is given recall admonitions about not waking the sleeping giant, in the vernacular that was China. In this case, that sleeping giant MIGHT turn out to be The Fourth Estate, unlikely as that might seem. Thank you Jim.

February 23, 2012, 01:13 PM	#2041
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Sharyl Attkisson with CBS News is reporting that the murder of ICE agent Jaime Zapata has been definitively linked to weapons from a non-Fast & Furious ATF undercover operation. Apparently, ATF was watching TWO separate traffickers and weapons from both traffickers subsequently ended up in Mexico at the murder scene of Jaime Zapata. Dave Workman at the Examiner is saying that Sen. Grassley is not at all pleased with this report since he has been asking DOJ for information related to the death of Agent Zapata for almost a year now and been stonewalled. The Zapata family was also apparently not informed of this link and was not told of the ATF connection or asked to give a victim impact statement at the trial of either trafficker. They apparently heard about it from CBS calling them for comment.

February 23, 2012, 10:53 PM	#2043
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	This latest from CBS News is just amazing. Holder had to know about this prosecution while he was testifying to Congress; yet he doesn't mention it. If he claims he didn't know, more proof of incompetence. Nobody could be that incompetent, IMO.

February 24, 2012, 12:10 AM	#2044
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Ben Towe, after quoting a portion of my post offered the following: Quote: Anyhow, having heard Ms. Miller, one is given recall admonitions about not waking the sleeping giant, in the vernacular that was China. In this case, that sleeping giant MIGHT turn out to be The Fourth Estate, unlikely as that might seem. You could be onto something there. They may be rabidly anti-gun on the whole, but many of them are viciously opposed to corruption as well. Besides, nothing gets ratings like a big juicy scandal. ------------------------------------- Re the "big, juicy scandal" he mentions, point taken. Just think how much juicer, how much bigger the scandal of Operation Fast & Furious, along with its' ongoing coverup would be if media gave up singing its' usual anti gun dirge and really concentrated on the twin scandals of Operation Fast & Furious, and its' cover-up. I suspect a whole lot bigger and a whole lot juicer.

February 24, 2012, 09:08 AM	#2045
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	The really ironic thing is that all these anti-gun organizations claim to be concerned about gun violence; but yet aren't the least bit outraged or upset to find that ATF is directing firearms to violent criminals. You would think that if they were really concerned about gun violence they would be just as upset as we are. From my perspective, it seems like they see arming violent criminals as a small price to pay if it means they can disarm the vast majority of us who never hurt a soul with our firearms.

February 24, 2012, 11:01 AM	#2048
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I see, Rep Michael McCaul specifically said "Fast and Furious". He should have said "BATFE gunrunning operations..."

February 24, 2012, 11:35 AM	#2049
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Rep Michael McCaul's questions begin at 39 minutes: http://www.c-span.org/Events/Secreta...10737428328-1/ It's very short, but I think McCaul is trying to establish a connection - there was an ICE agent assigned to F&F. Originally it was Ed Hammel, later it was Layne France. They attended meetings but never heard anything? Did these guys never make reports? Never give status updates? There is also the issue of the replacement of Ed Hamel with Layne France to work alongside ATF in the operation. Suppodedly Ed Hamel raised objections - I'd love to know if those were written objects. Janet seems to have pausible deniability and really hasn't come under scrutiny, but as more and more information comes to light, I have to ask how she could not know about F&F. She had an agent working alongside BATFE on F&F !! Who yanked Ed Hamel when he raised objections? That was done without her knowledge?

February 24, 2012, 11:55 AM	#2050
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Not only that; but Dennis Burke, the U. S. Attorney in Phoenix and thus far, the highest ranking figure forced to resign over Fast and Furious (as well as being the person DOJ threw under the bus for lying to Congress in the initial response letter) is Napolitano's former Chief-of-Staff.