Howdah????

tdmoparguy · May 7, 2009, 05:52 PM

Could you make a 10ga. Howdah?

olyinaz · May 7, 2009, 07:06 PM

Hmm, well I'm sure almost anything is possible given the talented gunsmiths we've got in America but my first thought was how pleasant would it be to even shoot such a firearm?

Cheers,
Oly

arcticap · May 7, 2009, 07:51 PM

I suppose that anyone could saw off and shorten the double barrels of a Pedersoli 10 gauge ML shotgun, and then fix up the wood.
Is that what you had in mind?

tdmoparguy · May 7, 2009, 09:39 PM

I was wondering if there was enough material in the barrels that you could bore or ream them from 20 to 10ga. Yes i suppose you could cut down the barrel and stock of a 10ga Db Pedersoli but the Howdah is already ready to go was my thinking. Could you get a replacement barrel for a Pedersoli Db 10ga and cut it down and adapt it to a Howdah? I just thought it would be a neat idea.

gmatov · May 7, 2009, 10:58 PM

How pleasant it would be to shoot would be determined by how bad you need to shoot it. I suggest "Ghost and the Darkness", though fiction. Excellent movie. Val Kilmer, Michael Douglas.

I do believe the movie is based on an actual maneater and the hunt for the same. "Maneater of Tsvaio" I think is the name. Maybe it's Tsavo.

If that lion or tiger was about to take e bite out of your ass and you had a 2 INCH BORE hand cannon, whether it would break both your arms or not, you would shoot that sumbitch. And HOPE you killed that man eating sumbitch.

Kick is objective, anyhow. Your guns almost all kick your ass on the bench. Mine did. When I shot a deer, no recoil at all. Remarkable.

Cheers,
George

Oh, hell NO!!! You ain't gonna make a 12 out of a 20 guage. 20 is about 5/8. 12 is I think .718 for choke, chamber is probably 25/32.

madcratebuilder · May 7, 2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

I was wondering if there was enough material in the barrels that you could bore or ream them from 20 to 10ga. Yes i suppose you could cut down the barrel and stock of a 10ga Db Pedersoli but the Howdah is already ready to go was my thinking. Could you get a replacement barrel for a Pedersoli Db 10ga and cut it down and adapt it to a Howdah? I just thought it would be a neat idea.

The barrels are to thin to ream oversize, you might be able to go up one gauge size. Any muzzle loading shot gun could be cut down and new pistol grip stock fabricated.
The 20ga Howda is a hand full with 50-60gr loads. I would consider a 16 ga to be about the max for reasonable comfort.

FL-Flinter · May 8, 2009, 01:16 AM

A 10ga can be built but not from a 20ga because there isn't enough barrel. 20ga ML bore is 0.615" to 0.620" and a 10ga is 0.775" to 0.780" thus the 10ga bore I.D. (Inside Diameter) would roughly equal the 20ga barrel O.D. (Outside Diameter).

Two other pertinent issues are the grip design and recoil. The maximum allowable powder charge for the Pedersoli Howdah is 35gr of black powder and when behind a 342gr 20ga round ball is going to be a handful to control with the long radius grip design. A 0.770" 10ga round ball shows 688gr on the balance or slightly more than double the mass of the 0.610" ball. Grip design is very important when it comes to controlling recoil but no matter the design, there comes a point when the recoil will become excessive and uncontrollable which is what you will find with an extremely large bore handgun.

When I build a gun, or even when replacing the grip panels on a C&B for someone, adjusting the grip style & size to the user makes a huge difference in how well the gun interfaces with the user.

BillCA · May 8, 2009, 01:32 AM

Early Howdah pistols were approximately 8-10 bore, being cut down from muzzle loading shotguns available in India. As you'd expect, a little experimenting found that extra powder and shot could be added or a single slug because the short barrel (about 7-8") released the pressure rapidly enough. A collector friend had one and it was the only muzzle loader I'd ever seen where black powder was poured in with a soup ladle!

Later versions included cut-down double rifles, such as the .577 Snyder or 577/450 Martini-Henry which would be simply astounding to shoot with one hand atop a bucking elephant. Other variants included 10gauge English double shotguns whether muzzle loaded or breech loaded.

As to why the pistol was needed in the first place, watch this 3 minute clip of a team trying to dart a tiger for relocation in India. You'd think that orange pelt would stand out amongst the green grass. Silly you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LjG7...layer_embedded
Yes, the mahout on the elephant was severely mauled, but at least he's alive. The story about the incident is here.

If you're a masochistic recoil junkie, I'd suggest cutting down a 10ga shotgun and using a buckshot load. You'd run afoul of federal AOW laws with a smoothbore though. So converting a rifle to a pistol would be less legally involved, I think. Or just buy a Thompson-Center pistol and fit it with a 12" barrel for .375 H&H. Be sure to wear a catcher's mask when firing it though.

Any handgun that can, in the words of Peter Capstick, "scrape a 500 pound tiger off an elephant's back" is going to have some really unpleasant recoil. I'd rather fire a 4-inch .500 S&W Magnum barehanded.

Re: The Ghost & the Darkness:
Based on The Man-eaters of Tsavo and other East African Adventures, the memoirs of Col. John Henry Patterson, during the building of the Tsavo rail bridge, Kenya in 1898. The lions took approximately 135 victims before Patterson killed them. IIRC, no American was present as in the 1996 film, but as beautiful as that movie was, it doesn't quite capture the terror like the written words. You can find the story, along with several others, in Peter Capstick's excellent Death in the Silent Places.

darkgael · May 8, 2009, 04:54 AM

Question:

Quote:

You'd run afoul of federal AOW laws with a smoothbore though

Is that really so? I'd been, still am, under the impression that the restrictions regarding barrel length, etc. do not apply to muzzleloaders. Am I incorrect in that?
Have read the story as well as seen the film. I like your comment about the effect of the written word; how very true.
Pete

madcratebuilder · May 8, 2009, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Question:
Quote:
You'd run afoul of federal AOW laws with a smoothbore though
Is that really so? I'd been, still am, under the impression that the restrictions regarding barrel length, etc. do not apply to muzzleloaders. Am I incorrect in that?
Have read the story as well as seen the film. I like your comment about the effect of the written word; how very true.

A muzzle loader is a non firearm, NFA laws do not apply.

tdmoparguy · May 8, 2009, 11:51 AM

Thanks for info so far. Could you get a replacement barrel for a Pedersoli Db 10ga and cut it down and adapt it to a Howdah? Or would it just be easier and alot less of a headache to cut down a 10ga Db?

BillCA · May 8, 2009, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Is that really so? I'd been, still am, under the impression that the restrictions regarding barrel length, etc. do not apply to muzzleloaders. Am I incorrect in that?

No, you are correct in that muzzle loaders are exempt.

I was addressing the notion of taking a 10-gauge cartridge shotgun and cutting it down. That would be, as the feds say, a no-no.

The Ghost and the Darkness would have benefited from a good dramatic reading from Patterson's book or Capstick's version. I think Kilmer has a good enough voice to pull that off. Especially when he's in the tree and the clouds sweep in to cover the moon, making the night as black as an ink well. In Capstick's version, Col.JHP hears the lions roaring off to his right for an hour. Then he says, there's only one thing worse than hearing a lion's roar in the night. And that's not hearing it,

for that means they're on the hunt.

Scorch · May 8, 2009, 07:44 PM

BillCA-
I think I just wet my pants when I watched that video and the tiger jumped onto the elephant! Good video!!

CraigC · May 8, 2009, 07:58 PM

I'm no sissy but if you gave me one, I'd pay somebody else to shoot it for me.

gmatov · May 8, 2009, 10:49 PM

Craig,

I don't know how that thing, whatever it is, kicks, but the Tower I made into a shooter for a client, and had to test, with his specs ( I had never shot a .69 cal. RB, had no idea how to load.) THAT SOB wrung it's way out of my grip and took a chunk out of my knuckle from that bigassed screw on the hammer.

Bill,

There is not a book that has ever been turned into a movie that was any where near as good as the book.

Problem. 12 to 40 hours of reading will not condense to 2 hours of movie without losing most OF the gist of the book.

I have not read "Maneaters of Tsavo". I have picked it up at Borders and contemplated it. Thin paper, I think about 500 pages.

So, 2 hour movie.. Ain't nothing of the book but the highlights.

Anybody read Harry Potter books? 800 pages and 2 hour movie. You KNOW that lots is left out.

Hell, They didn't even know there WERE 2 lions eating people, per the movie.

Cheers,
George

Bill DeShivs · May 9, 2009, 01:09 AM

Tdmoparguy- Have you ever SHOT a 20 ga. pistol?
I doubt you have, or you wouldn't be asking about a 10 ga.!

madcratebuilder · May 9, 2009, 06:14 AM

A 10ga Howda would be very uncomfortable to shoot. This 20ga is a hand full at 50gr. My LeMat is a 16ga and a hand full at 35gr.

arcticap · May 9, 2009, 06:03 PM

I've fired 400 grains of lead loaded on top of a 100 grain duplex powder load of APP/Clear Shot (~60/40) out of this .667 caliber Sea Service smoothbore.
While the load did produce "considerable" felt recoil, it was controllable by holding the pistol with 2 hands. And although it only has a 9 inch barrel, I imagine that this pistol is also much lighter in weight than the Pedersoli 20 gauge Howdah double barrel pistol.

Video:

http://s55.photobucket.com/remix/pla...fs=1&os=1&ap=1

tdmoparguy · May 9, 2009, 08:40 PM

Thank you for all the replies. I'm not planning on building and shooting one I just saw a Howdah on Cabelas and wondered if anybody had modified one to a 10ga. Bill DeShivs No i haven't gotten the chance to shoot a BP Shotgun or Rifle yet. All i've shot is my 4 'Navys and my Dragoon. If anybody has a 10ga Double Barrel BP Shotgun i am wanting to trade my Dragoon and some cash for one. It doesn't have to be brand new I just want to try one to see if i like it.
Thank You
Tom Dooley

CraigC · May 9, 2009, 10:25 PM

IMHO, the grip is not very conducive to handling heavy recoil. While I enjoy shooting my half dozen .44Mag's, my Lyman Plains Pistol .54cal is quite the handful with a roundball and 50gr powder charge. A 10ga would just be unshootable........at least more than once.

BillCA · May 9, 2009, 10:38 PM

I'd think that a 10ga Howdah, even black powder powered, would be even less pleasant to fire than one of the old Ithaca Auto-Burglars in 20ga...

Firing these one-handed can be very exciting if you don't duck to one side.

They were much more popular in 28ga for defensive use.

FL-Flinter · May 10, 2009, 09:51 AM

This is my .54 x 1:66 twist w/ 16" barrel. Easily shot one hand with 75gr of 3F under a 0.535" PRB

The hogs & deer are not fond of it...

darkgael · May 11, 2009, 03:15 AM

Just today I got around to patterning a 20 gauge nine inch barreled Howdah that I picked up recently. Since it's a short range affair I patterned it at ten yards this first time. I was favorably impressed. The patterns were very uniform, though wide. There was 60% coverage and even enough that it would be good enough for birds out to maybe 15 yards.
The load was 3/4 oz of 7.5s, 55 grains FFg (two drams), Nitro card, 1/4" cushion and OS card, Nice shooter. Horrible trigger.
The ten gauges must've been pretty fierce. But, then, so are tigers.
Pete

arcticap · May 12, 2009, 12:48 PM

That sounds like a nice shooting gun.
Besides target shooting, it's also important to consider the ability of the shot to penetrate as much as how it patterns.
Depending on the purpose, shot penetration should be tested and smaller shot fired at lower velocities will penetrate less.
One way to test shot penetration is by shooting at a soup can at the desired distance. If the shot doesn't penetrate it then the powder will need to be increased, a larger shot size loaded or both.

May 7, 2009, 05:52 PM	#1
tdmoparguy Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Location: Okmulgee,OK Posts: 70	Howdah???? Could you make a 10ga. Howdah?

May 8, 2009, 01:16 AM	#7
FL-Flinter Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2007 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 207	A 10ga can be built but not from a 20ga because there isn't enough barrel. 20ga ML bore is 0.615" to 0.620" and a 10ga is 0.775" to 0.780" thus the 10ga bore I.D. (Inside Diameter) would roughly equal the 20ga barrel O.D. (Outside Diameter). Two other pertinent issues are the grip design and recoil. The maximum allowable powder charge for the Pedersoli Howdah is 35gr of black powder and when behind a 342gr 20ga round ball is going to be a handful to control with the long radius grip design. A 0.770" 10ga round ball shows 688gr on the balance or slightly more than double the mass of the 0.610" ball. Grip design is very important when it comes to controlling recoil but no matter the design, there comes a point when the recoil will become excessive and uncontrollable which is what you will find with an extremely large bore handgun. When I build a gun, or even when replacing the grip panels on a C&B for someone, adjusting the grip style & size to the user makes a huge difference in how well the gun interfaces with the user. __________________ "Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything." Harry S. Truman [email protected]

May 8, 2009, 01:32 AM	#8
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	Early Howdah pistols were approximately 8-10 bore, being cut down from muzzle loading shotguns available in India. As you'd expect, a little experimenting found that extra powder and shot could be added or a single slug because the short barrel (about 7-8") released the pressure rapidly enough. A collector friend had one and it was the only muzzle loader I'd ever seen where black powder was poured in with a soup ladle! Later versions included cut-down double rifles, such as the .577 Snyder or 577/450 Martini-Henry which would be simply astounding to shoot with one hand atop a bucking elephant. Other variants included 10gauge English double shotguns whether muzzle loaded or breech loaded. As to why the pistol was needed in the first place, watch this 3 minute clip of a team trying to dart a tiger for relocation in India. You'd think that orange pelt would stand out amongst the green grass. Silly you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LjG7...layer_embedded Yes, the mahout on the elephant was severely mauled, but at least he's alive. The story about the incident is here. If you're a masochistic recoil junkie, I'd suggest cutting down a 10ga shotgun and using a buckshot load. You'd run afoul of federal AOW laws with a smoothbore though. So converting a rifle to a pistol would be less legally involved, I think. Or just buy a Thompson-Center pistol and fit it with a 12" barrel for .375 H&H. Be sure to wear a catcher's mask when firing it though. Any handgun that can, in the words of Peter Capstick, "scrape a 500 pound tiger off an elephant's back" is going to have some really unpleasant recoil. I'd rather fire a 4-inch .500 S&W Magnum barehanded. Re: The Ghost & the Darkness: Based on The Man-eaters of Tsavo and other East African Adventures, the memoirs of Col. John Henry Patterson, during the building of the Tsavo rail bridge, Kenya in 1898. The lions took approximately 135 victims before Patterson killed them. IIRC, no American was present as in the 1996 film, but as beautiful as that movie was, it doesn't quite capture the terror like the written words. You can find the story, along with several others, in Peter Capstick's excellent Death in the Silent Places. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

May 8, 2009, 07:44 PM	#13
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	BillCA- I think I just wet my pants when I watched that video and the tiger jumped onto the elephant! Good video!! __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

May 9, 2009, 01:09 AM	#16
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	Tdmoparguy- Have you ever SHOT a 20 ga. pistol? I doubt you have, or you wouldn't be asking about a 10 ga.! __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

May 7, 2009, 07:06 PM	#2
olyinaz Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 877	Hmm, well I'm sure almost anything is possible given the talented gunsmiths we've got in America but my first thought was how pleasant would it be to even shoot such a firearm? Cheers, Oly

May 7, 2009, 07:51 PM	#3
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	I suppose that anyone could saw off and shorten the double barrels of a Pedersoli 10 gauge ML shotgun, and then fix up the wood. Is that what you had in mind?

May 7, 2009, 09:39 PM	#4
tdmoparguy Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Location: Okmulgee,OK Posts: 70	I was wondering if there was enough material in the barrels that you could bore or ream them from 20 to 10ga. Yes i suppose you could cut down the barrel and stock of a 10ga Db Pedersoli but the Howdah is already ready to go was my thinking. Could you get a replacement barrel for a Pedersoli Db 10ga and cut it down and adapt it to a Howdah? I just thought it would be a neat idea.

May 7, 2009, 10:58 PM	#5
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	How pleasant it would be to shoot would be determined by how bad you need to shoot it. I suggest "Ghost and the Darkness", though fiction. Excellent movie. Val Kilmer, Michael Douglas. I do believe the movie is based on an actual maneater and the hunt for the same. "Maneater of Tsvaio" I think is the name. Maybe it's Tsavo. If that lion or tiger was about to take e bite out of your ass and you had a 2 INCH BORE hand cannon, whether it would break both your arms or not, you would shoot that sumbitch. And HOPE you killed that man eating sumbitch. Kick is objective, anyhow. Your guns almost all kick your ass on the bench. Mine did. When I shot a deer, no recoil at all. Remarkable. Cheers, George Oh, hell NO!!! You ain't gonna make a 12 out of a 20 guage. 20 is about 5/8. 12 is I think .718 for choke, chamber is probably 25/32.

May 8, 2009, 11:51 AM	#11
tdmoparguy Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Location: Okmulgee,OK Posts: 70	Thanks for info so far. Could you get a replacement barrel for a Pedersoli Db 10ga and cut it down and adapt it to a Howdah? Or would it just be easier and alot less of a headache to cut down a 10ga Db?

May 8, 2009, 07:58 PM	#14
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	I'm no sissy but if you gave me one, I'd pay somebody else to shoot it for me.

May 8, 2009, 10:49 PM	#15
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	Craig, I don't know how that thing, whatever it is, kicks, but the Tower I made into a shooter for a client, and had to test, with his specs ( I had never shot a .69 cal. RB, had no idea how to load.) THAT SOB wrung it's way out of my grip and took a chunk out of my knuckle from that bigassed screw on the hammer. Bill, There is not a book that has ever been turned into a movie that was any where near as good as the book. Problem. 12 to 40 hours of reading will not condense to 2 hours of movie without losing most OF the gist of the book. I have not read "Maneaters of Tsavo". I have picked it up at Borders and contemplated it. Thin paper, I think about 500 pages. So, 2 hour movie.. Ain't nothing of the book but the highlights. Anybody read Harry Potter books? 800 pages and 2 hour movie. You KNOW that lots is left out. Hell, They didn't even know there WERE 2 lions eating people, per the movie. Cheers, George

May 9, 2009, 06:14 AM	#17
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	A 10ga Howda would be very uncomfortable to shoot. This 20ga is a hand full at 50gr. My LeMat is a 16ga and a hand full at 35gr.

May 9, 2009, 06:03 PM	#18
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	I've fired 400 grains of lead loaded on top of a 100 grain duplex powder load of APP/Clear Shot (~60/40) out of this .667 caliber Sea Service smoothbore. While the load did produce "considerable" felt recoil, it was controllable by holding the pistol with 2 hands. And although it only has a 9 inch barrel, I imagine that this pistol is also much lighter in weight than the Pedersoli 20 gauge Howdah double barrel pistol. Video: http://s55.photobucket.com/remix/pla...fs=1&os=1&ap=1 Last edited by arcticap; May 9, 2009 at 10:27 PM.

May 9, 2009, 08:40 PM	#19
tdmoparguy Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Location: Okmulgee,OK Posts: 70	Thank you for all the replies. I'm not planning on building and shooting one I just saw a Howdah on Cabelas and wondered if anybody had modified one to a 10ga. Bill DeShivs No i haven't gotten the chance to shoot a BP Shotgun or Rifle yet. All i've shot is my 4 'Navys and my Dragoon. If anybody has a 10ga Double Barrel BP Shotgun i am wanting to trade my Dragoon and some cash for one. It doesn't have to be brand new I just want to try one to see if i like it. Thank You Tom Dooley

May 9, 2009, 10:25 PM	#20
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	IMHO, the grip is not very conducive to handling heavy recoil. While I enjoy shooting my half dozen .44Mag's, my Lyman Plains Pistol .54cal is quite the handful with a roundball and 50gr powder charge. A 10ga would just be unshootable........at least more than once.

May 9, 2009, 10:38 PM	#21
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	I'd think that a 10ga Howdah, even black powder powered, would be even less pleasant to fire than one of the old Ithaca Auto-Burglars in 20ga... Firing these one-handed can be very exciting if you don't duck to one side. They were much more popular in 28ga for defensive use. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

May 10, 2009, 09:51 AM	#22
FL-Flinter Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2007 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 207	This is my .54 x 1:66 twist w/ 16" barrel. Easily shot one hand with 75gr of 3F under a 0.535" PRB The hogs & deer are not fond of it... __________________ "Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything." Harry S. Truman [email protected]

May 11, 2009, 03:15 AM	#23
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	FWIW Just today I got around to patterning a 20 gauge nine inch barreled Howdah that I picked up recently. Since it's a short range affair I patterned it at ten yards this first time. I was favorably impressed. The patterns were very uniform, though wide. There was 60% coverage and even enough that it would be good enough for birds out to maybe 15 yards. The load was 3/4 oz of 7.5s, 55 grains FFg (two drams), Nitro card, 1/4" cushion and OS card, Nice shooter. Horrible trigger. The ten gauges must've been pretty fierce. But, then, so are tigers. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

May 12, 2009, 12:48 PM	#24
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	That sounds like a nice shooting gun. Besides target shooting, it's also important to consider the ability of the shot to penetrate as much as how it patterns. Depending on the purpose, shot penetration should be tested and smaller shot fired at lower velocities will penetrate less. One way to test shot penetration is by shooting at a soup can at the desired distance. If the shot doesn't penetrate it then the powder will need to be increased, a larger shot size loaded or both. Last edited by arcticap; May 12, 2009 at 12:55 PM.