March 8, 2005, 01:00 PM | #1 |
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FN 5.7mm P-90 Ballistics?
There has been a lot of debate on the stopping power of the 5.7mm, and I know some ballisticians don't like the round. (No need to post those as I have read them through several times)
But does anyone here know of any shootings with it other than the Lima, Peru raid? -DmL |
March 25, 2005, 05:01 PM | #2 |
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i was wondering the same thing it seems like it would have about the same stopping power as a 22 magnum.. does anyone know??
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March 25, 2005, 05:36 PM | #3 |
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futureforcewarrior22 used one in the sandbox that he picked up somewhere. He gives a description of his experience with it in this thread.
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March 26, 2005, 06:08 AM | #4 | |
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Last edited by smince; March 26, 2005 at 06:08 PM. |
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March 26, 2005, 04:50 PM | #5 | |
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Out of a 4-inch barrel, a 40-grain .22 Magnum gets 1450 fps. Out of the Five-seveN's 4.75-inch barrel, the 31-grain 5.7x28mm gets 2150 fps. I know of several shootings with the 5.7 where it gave good performance, but I wanted to know if any here have heard of some shootings that I haven't. Thanks IZ for the interesting link. -DmL |
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March 26, 2005, 06:05 PM | #6 | |
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And I've read that Hornady's "civilian load" for the 5.7x28 only clocks at 1400fps. A centerfire Stinger. |
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March 26, 2005, 07:45 PM | #7 | |
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But its not fair to compare it to .22 Magnum fired out of a barrel of twice the length. Given a long enough barrel, 22 Mag could be made ballistically equal to almost any pistol caliber. A fair comparison is the two rounds fired out of equal (or nearly equal) barrel lengths. When this is done (as posted earlier), the .22 Magnum isn't even close to the 5.7mm. Regarding the new 40 gr. civilian round, it isn't known yet what the velocity will be. There have been figures of 1300 fps, 1650 fps, and 2000 fps. FN doesn't even know what it will be. The round will be arriving soon in the US and FN expect it to be just under 2000 fps. Regardless of whether the new round is 2000 fps or 1300 fps, there are plans by at least one major reloading company to produce a 30-grain round that will be similar ballistically to the old SS192. But in spite of all this, I wasn't talking about the new V-max SS-196 round, or the old SS-192 JHP, or even the LE/Military FMJ SS-190. This topic pertains to the 5.7mm SS-190 round's performance in shootings. -DmL |
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March 26, 2005, 07:59 PM | #8 | ||
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Sorry, I just can't get excited about a centerfire round with rimfire ballistics. Quote:
Since I helped this thread go astray, I'm out. |
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March 26, 2005, 09:40 PM | #9 | |
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#2. We weren't talking terminal ballistics anyway. I have a lot more info in favor of the 5.7 if we want to talk terminal ballistics. But so far we're talking just ballistics, as in velocity and projectile weight. Terminal ballistics would favor the 5.7 because as you said, the two rounds fire very different projectiles. The 5.7 round is .850-inch long and it tumbles. Anyway, your original statement was false. The 5.7 and .22Mag cartridges are by no means similar ballistically unless the latter is fired from a barrel of twice the length of the former. Even then, the 5.7 surprisingly has a slight edge in energy, giving 20 more ft. lbs (it actually generates 379 flb at muzzle). Out of the same barrel length, the .22 Magnum is a long drop from the 5.7mm. I have heard the 5.7 compared many times to the .22 Magnum, but its not a legitimate comparison even if one does not take bullet design into account. Also its performance in shootings. But I will not get into that as my intention was to get new details, preferably from new shootings, not provide them. -DmL |
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March 27, 2005, 03:49 PM | #10 |
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A 55grn .22@2800+ has proven to be marginal in the sandbox. I sure wouldn't want to depend on a 31grn .22 going much slower.
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March 27, 2005, 05:53 PM | #11 |
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Ah...but the 5.7 is magic!
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March 27, 2005, 06:08 PM | #12 |
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Oh yeah! Forgot about that. Can't badmouth the latest miracle cure.
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March 27, 2005, 06:41 PM | #13 |
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^^^
Looking at what Futurewarrior posted, it seems like it does OK going by the P90's design philosophy: high ROF, high accuracy, high penetration.
Any one round isn't going to do much soft damage, but five or so to center torso sure will. |
March 27, 2005, 10:49 PM | #14 | |
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#1. You said "in the sandbox". Does the same marginal performance apply to the 5.56 round when used in a close quarters role? Close quarters is the intended use of the 5.7 weapons. The 5.56 performance issues you present are at extended range. #2. Here is where we stop talking bullet weight and velocity. What ultimately matters is the wound, not the bullet characteristics. The 5.7 creates a larger permanent cavity than the 5.56 because the projectile has a longer length, leading to a larger wound during tumble. The 5.7 also tumbles earlier and stays in tumble longer than the 5.56mm. Take note I am NOT saying the 5.7 is superior or equal to 5.56mm. The 5.56 has the benefit of a much larger temporary cavity, whereas the TC of the 5.7 isn't large enough to aid its TE. #3. A round only need penetrate a depth equal to the thickness of the target. The average thickness of a human torso is 9.4 inches. The penetration given by the 5.7 in the Five-seveN is 8-10 inches and 11 to 13 inches in the P-90. This is the most penetration you can get without overpenetration, and its also the most you will need in most scenarios. Therefore, the superior flesh penetration of the 5.56 doesn't help it in 90% of its applications and overpenetration is a concern. Reduced overpenetration was one of the design points of the 5.7 and one of the reasons why it is finding favor with so many protection units like the US Secret Service. #4. That argument against the 5.7 is further disproved by its more-than-marginal performance in about fifteen shootings. No-one has survived a shot to the chest with a 5.7, whether wearing heavy winter clothing or high protection (IIIA) soft armor. 90% of the shootings involved one round and the others involved a couple rounds. You can argue against a round all you want, but I'm not believing you when the round is out there performing again and again. #5. On top of this, the 5.7 weapons have been adopted by dozens of SF/CT units (including the French GIGN) after going through extensive ballistic testing. These units would not adopt a weapon for general use whose wound channel resembled a .22 Magnum. Most of these units are using the weapons for general use and many of them replaced their previously-used M4's and MP5's. #6. The 5.7 round also has very low recoil and thus very high hit probability. Better shot placement means better wounding ability. #7. The 5.7 weapons aren't restricted to a single shot anyway. The Five-seveN holds twenty rounds and the P-90 holds fifty. A quote: "As one who has actually used the P90 for tactical operations I can say that it is a devastating round despite its small size. From our initial training, I recall the fact that no one has survived being shot by the P90." My opinion on the wounding ability of the 5.7 is that it is on par with other pistol calibers. However, the weapons themselves offer many advantages: lightweight, low recoil, almost no overpenetration, high capacity, and still have reasonable ergonomics. -DmL |
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March 27, 2005, 11:27 PM | #15 | |||
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I hope y'all will forgive me, I'm late to this 5.7 hoopla party.
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7.62x25 Tokarev: 85gr@1647 for 511 ft/lbs. (Seller & Belloit) Quote:
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A round that penetrates level IIIA soft armor (without the hard plates I assume) will no doubt delight the black hearts of lawyers the first time an innocent is hit with one of these, either through a miss or overpenetration. But I digress. Maybe I'm missing something here. The Brits developed the .224 BOZ to do about the same thing as the 5.7 and designed it as a one-shot concept. Here we have the 5.7 with people appearing to claim 100% one-shot lethality from thoractic hits but saying it works best when firing bursts. I'm just trying to get a grip on what the role of this gun should be and why its supposed to be superior to similar calibers.
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March 28, 2005, 12:41 AM | #16 |
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^^^
So it's highly effective, AND allows for sustained fire?
Also, the disadvantage of a shotgun is that if you twitch and miss, it amounts to using a heavy-recoil, small-magazine, semiautomatic rifle. P90, you can quite literally hose your targets down. And if you have good aim, you can put enough bullets (I would have said lead, except that they have enviro-friendly ammo...[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color], right?) into them to compensate for relatively light bullets. And Lawyers would like to get rid of any and all firearms...it doesn't really matter what round is used, although the SS19x family does seem to be a pet peeve of clueless anti-gun people. |
March 28, 2005, 02:07 PM | #17 | ||||||
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The CZ-52 also only has 40% of the Five-seveN's capacity (8 rds vs. 20 rds.) and its also heavier. Quote:
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-DmL |
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March 28, 2005, 03:37 PM | #18 | |
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A requirement was posted for a very compact SMG for use by non-infantry personnel in combat zones (like tank crews). They wanted armor penetration, high ROF, low recoil, and a nice flat trajectory. FN designed the weapon first, then the round for the weapon, as opposed to designing a weapon to go with an existing round. |
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March 28, 2005, 04:03 PM | #19 |
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Stiletto is correct
The P90 is a very ergonomic weapon by all accounts The caliber/round is totally secondary (good thing) It will never be the equal of the 5.56 at any range It was meant to replace a handgun, or pistol caliber subgun...not a rifle/carbine...it is small and relatively light. It relies on it's ability to easily put multiple rounds on target...quickly and accurately...and defeat body armor. Head to head, the 5.7 x 28 round is slightly less impressive than the better 9mm loadings with regard to terminal ballistics. It does not generally achieve adequate penetration. Rounds that penetrate less than 13" have been shown to be less than satisfactory in the real world. There is too much chance of having to shoot through an arm into the chest, or through the width of the chest.....the bad guys do not always stand still and face you head on in the real world. Now...a burst of 5.7 x 28 is going to do much more damage than a single 9mm round...absolutely...very little doubt! But the evidence of the 5.7 rounds "street effectiveness" is pretty thin...so far. |
March 28, 2005, 05:34 PM | #20 |
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Said it before.....the P90 is essentially worthless for civis, and purt near worthless even on full auto, *relative to* other carbine choices. It's fun. It's cute. It's got 50 rounds if you're LEO. But...It's a .22 magnum. If you need a carbine, grab an M4.
The FiveseveN, on the other hand, fills a limited niche, I believe, by giving a *concealable*, SBA-piercing round (even the non-penetrator rounds will penetrate far better than any other handgun alternative). |
March 28, 2005, 06:40 PM | #21 | ||||||
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Low recoil AP ability Flat trajectory High capacity Quote:
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#2. I take it from the .22Mag comparison that you didn't read my earlier post. It isn't a .22 Magnum at all. Out of the same barrel length it gets 700 fps better than a .22 Mag and the 5.7 has an entirely different bullet design. #3. The advantages of the P-90 over the M4: 1/3 the recoil Lightweight High magazine capacity Fully ambidextrous Ergonomics Size Easily maintained Won't overpenetrate target The advantages of the M4 over the P-90: More powerful Which based on the shootings, wounding ability is not an issue with the P-90 anyway. -DmL |
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March 28, 2005, 06:47 PM | #22 |
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Picked up the new "Gun World" today at Walmart today, solely because it had an article by Leroy Thompson on the FiveseveN IOM. Basically he said "The Secret Service believes the 5.7 has 3 times the stopping power of the best 9mm, but IT HASN'T BEEN INVOLVED IN ENOUGH SHOOTINGS FOR THAT TO BE PROVEN OR DISPROVEN".
Guns and Ammo put out a "Combat Arms" special edition last month. David Fortier did an article on the P90/5.7. In a sub article, Iver Johnson made a necked-down .30 carbine for their M1 Carbine copy in 1963. He said if you place a hendful of each together, you'd have a hard time separating which was which. Nothing is new. Ahead of it's time? Or not well performing back then, either? Fortier also sadi that it was designed for PDW, but was being pushed into other areas of service. He would much rather have a real rifle if intentionally heading into harm's way. 5.56 has been chosen by many CQB teams BECAUSE overpenetration at close range is actually less than most 9mm SMG's. |
March 28, 2005, 09:42 PM | #23 |
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Wow...Gun World apparently understands statistics and the scientific method
And unlike DML they don't appear to have an agenda Things that make you say hmmmm I believe the 22mag comparison was a comparison in straight ballistics not weapons platforms Advocates seem to jockey back and forth between rifle/pistol comparisons in whatever order supports their theory best. It is a niche round in a niche weapon Goody It is definitely trendy I am quite certain chicks dig it! But the terminal performance of the round is at least suspect Most of the people I know that go in harms way are skeptical of it I have seen some serious smear campaigns launched against those that would oppose its many claims of greatness. One of those Is Dr. ROberts of Tactical Forums who has tested the round "The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 MagnumEven 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9....." And Mr. DiFabio of Ammo lab "Doc covered this well, We have also run LE only tests with the 5.7 pistol and the P90 carbine. Both were very disappointing and I have shared on several occassions that the development and attempted marketing of these cartridges toward the standard LE agency has for the most part been irreponsible IMHO. This cartridge offers nothing to the patrol officer in terms of increased terminal ballsitics over the standard G22/40 cal serive pistol and it is easily outclassed by a 180gr GD load." |
March 28, 2005, 11:02 PM | #25 |
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Well since it is a one shot killer- I'll stick to my 1964 S&W .22 Jet , which gets a real 2200fps with a Speer 40 grain bullet. That way I still got 5 in reserve and the S&W has a heck of a lot better trigger pull and sights!
I think the 31 grain .22 mag bullets hit about 1800fps in 6" barrel revolvers, my friend has a 30 round capacity Grendel which prolly hits at least that fast with ammo that costs 1/3 the price of the "new" 5.7 Spitfire. |
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