The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > NFA Guns and Gear

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 15, 2012, 02:56 AM   #1
UnbearablePanda
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2012
Posts: 113
Regarding short barrels

In washington, I already know that short barreled rifles are illegal to use/ have on a gun. Can you own one legally without attaching it to the rifle? Just to have in a safe?
UnbearablePanda is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 06:09 AM   #2
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,137
Can you own a short barrel just to have it? Not attached to anything?

Until a barrel is attached to a rifle, it's just a piece of pipe. It might be a handgun barrel, it might be a shotgun barrel, it might be a rifle barrel, but until it's attached to the firearm, it's meaningless.

If I've read your question in the manner you intended, I don't think that any jurisdiction in the world limits the length of a piece of tubing, which is all a barrel is, until it's installed on the firearm.
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 06:48 AM   #3
JR_Roosa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2009
Posts: 130
Not illegal, just requires a tax stamp and some paperwork, unless WA won't allow SBRs.

There's the concept of constructive possession.

The idea is that you can have a legal rifle and be OK. You can have a short rifle barrel and be OK (as long as you don't have a rifle to put it on). If you have the rifle and the short barrel, then you are in trouble because you could easily make a short-barreled rifle and therefore are in constructive possession of a non-existent short-barreled rifle.

If it's just a barrel for something like a bolt gun, you could argue that you don't have the tools to swap the barrel and hope for the best. If it's an AR upper that can be swapped without tools, then you're in trouble.

On the other hand, if you have a regular barrel AR, an AR pistol receiver, and a short AR upper, you can argue you actually have a rifle and a pistol, even though you could easily make an SBR, you have a legitimate reason to have the short upper.

It gets tricky when you get into this territory, so make sure you know the laws better than from internet advise or you can end up in jail.

-J.

Last edited by JR_Roosa; June 15, 2012 at 06:54 AM.
JR_Roosa is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 06:52 AM   #4
JR_Roosa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2009
Posts: 130
Quote:
Until a barrel is attached to a rifle, it's just a piece of pipe.
Nope, it's a gun barrel, and as long as you have the parts and ability to make something illegal, they can argue that is the same as having the restricted item. If it were unchambered, or not threaded to fit in a receiver yet, then yeah, it's a tube. Once it's ready to be screwed on, you've crossed the Rubicon.

If you don't have anything to put it on, then you're fine and it may as well be a pipe.

-J.
JR_Roosa is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 07:38 AM   #5
BigMikey76
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Bellevue, NE
Posts: 981
Quote:
It gets tricky when you get into this territory, so make sure you know the laws better than from internet advise or you can end up in jail.
That is the key concept here. No legal system in the country will take "I didn't know it was illegal" as an acceptable excuse. It is the responsibility of each individual to know the laws and how they are applied and enforced.
__________________
Some people are like Slinkies - not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.
BigMikey76 is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 08:07 AM   #6
rtpzwms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2010
Location: OTS
Posts: 1,035
So playing devil's advocate does this mean that if I own a T/C registered as a pistol and another registered as a rifle that I would not be allowed to own another (3rd) barrel?

I've read the post from the BATF (a copy of their letter was in the post) on another forum that said until you attach the barrel to the weapon you have NOT crossed their lines. If I remember correctly it was on a T/C forum. With that information I would argue that there is a government agency that has done the interpretation of the the law. I am not sure how it would hold water so YMMV.

If this was not the case I think a lot of T/C owners would be in a lot of trouble.
__________________
Experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want.
rtpzwms is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 08:33 AM   #7
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,137
Well, if having a short piece of tubing in my shop (which might potentially, someday, become a shotgun barrel) is illegal, I'm going to need a stack of tax forms and a deep pocket-book. I've got lots of old tubing pieces out there that I've stubbed from longer pipes. There may even be a piece of old barrel in the scrap bin. None of them have chambers in them, but if I correctly recall my youthful indiscretions, I do believe that a 20 gauge shotgun shell will fit nicely into a piece of 3/4 galvanized water pipe. I"ve been known to use that for cheater pipe, so I've got potentially a half-dozen short barreled shotguns in my tool chest.

I guess that the question would fall on the definition of 'rifle barrel". When does a piece of cylindrical metal become a rifle barrel?
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 09:05 AM   #8
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
It becomes a rifle barrel when it's capable of being used on a rifle. Chambered/threaded whatever.

It's not the barrel that's the problem. You can have 1000, 8 inch barrels with no trouble. They're unregulated.

The problem is when you also have a receiver/frame that the barrel can be mounted on.

THAT is "constructive possession" of a controlled item.

It actually seems that the ATF is letting up on the really ridiculous interpretations, but if you've got a short barrel and no handgun for it to go on but you DO have a rifle it could go on, you'd be in serious trouble if ATF found out.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 10:05 AM   #9
sc928porsche
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2008
Location: now living in alabama
Posts: 2,433
Its been a long time since I have dealt with any T/C's. But the early models, the rifle barrel would not fit the pistol frame and the pistol barrel would not fit the rifle frame.
__________________
No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.
sc928porsche is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 10:35 AM   #10
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
The modern frames and barrels are completely interchangeable. I don't know about the early guns but there is currently NO physical difference between handgun and rifle frames, they are one and the same. As far as I know, that's been the case for decades. There was a lawsuit between ATF and T/C regarding this in 1992, so it's been a LOOONG time.

ATF has, thankfully, backed off on their ridiculous opinions on this matter but not until last year.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 12:38 PM   #11
UnbearablePanda
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2012
Posts: 113
The laws in Washington for firearms are quite...... Lets say interesting, "One may possess a firearm suppressor, but you may not use it." X_X
UnbearablePanda is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 01:09 PM   #12
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Rainbow City, Alabama
Posts: 7,167
The T/C ruling was very narrowly written to specifically apply ONLY to frames that were designed to be interchangeable. It does not cover the constructive posession of a short rifle barrel in the same location as the receiver it could go on to make an SBR.
Doyle is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 01:13 PM   #13
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
That's true and for a long time the ATF was very unreasonable about that issue.
Now, it seems, they have backed off and only consider "constructive possesion" if the restricted device is the only possible build.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulin...ing-2011-4.pdf
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 07:04 PM   #14
rtpzwms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2010
Location: OTS
Posts: 1,035
Doyle,

Your comment about T/C is most likely true but here we have one form of government trying to impose its will on something regulated by another. And no matter how I look at this the T/C's would also be lumped into the same rulings.

sc928porsche,

I'm not sure how early you may be talking about but my T/C's are from the eighties and will accept long or short barrels.
__________________
Experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want.
rtpzwms is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 07:28 PM   #15
rjrivero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 1,399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger
That's true and for a long time the ATF was very unreasonable about that issue.
Now, it seems, they have backed off and only consider "constructive possesion" if the restricted device is the only possible build.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...OntPeQ&cad=rja
I've seen that link before!!
rjrivero is offline  
Old June 15, 2012, 08:39 PM   #16
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
I gave you credit in the OP of a whole thread!
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 16, 2012, 05:26 PM   #17
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Rainbow City, Alabama
Posts: 7,167
Rtpzwms I agree with you that the rulings should be inclusive. I think the person that actually wrote it should be hung by his 'nads until he makes it clear enough that us average non-lawyer types can read it without wincing in agony.
Doyle is offline  
Old June 16, 2012, 11:29 PM   #18
stmcelroy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2002
Location: Central Oregon
Posts: 562
Quote:
The laws in Washington for firearms are quite...... Lets say interesting, "One may possess a firearm suppressor, but you may not use it."
No longer true, the law changed last summer to allow use of suppressors in Washington.

Build a AR15 pistol and be done with it.
stmcelroy is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.06606 seconds with 10 queries