IDPA policy

David Blinder · December 8, 1999, 02:59 PM

I just started shooting IDPA and have a question. We had a stage where you started with your back to the target and then turned to shoot. I was taught to start the draw while turning for the economy of motion but was told that was not suitable for IDPA. Any thoughts?

Ricky T · December 8, 1999, 04:10 PM

David,
That is just competition rule. It applied to all spectator shooting sport. Whether it's IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge or whatever. It's there to protect the safety officer, other competitors and spectators. It's the same reason why shoulder, small of back, fanny pack holsters are not allowed. When the gun is drawn, there's a possibility that the muzzle will cover you and/or other people. Of course these techniques and equipment are used and taught for the street, nothing wrong with that. In USPSA, they have the 180 degree rule, where you draw an imaginary line, perpendicular to the sides of the range. If your muzzle at any time crosses this line, you are disqualified.
We'll discuss this next Monday night if you like.
Richard

Cheapo · December 8, 1999, 06:30 PM

Yeah, this and the other thread about IDPA not being all on the same page for womens' holsters illustrates my minor gripe with IDPA. They seem to be the evil-opposite to IPSC's free-for-all.

Why NOT allow crossdraw, shoulder, and small of back holsters ONLY on ranges with proper uprange shot containment? Many indoor ranges are hardened in the rear. Some outdoor ranges have offset berms at the entry point. So, if you're running only the RO(s) and the shooter on the line with no spectators exposed to the rearward line of fire on a bigga-bigga boo-boo, then the safety rationale of the no real-life holsters rule is satisfied.

Such a move would help keep the IDPA better at the "P" word than IPSC is.

And did you realize that the "head" on the IDPA target ends about where the eyes would be on a real Practical target? Is there a Practical problem here?

In suitably safe range settings (including & especially those hardened house simulators), the 180° rule would be replaced with a "don't cover the RO rule." That's practical enough, since having a partner/backup present *can* happen during a "practical" encounter.

HS · December 9, 1999, 07:19 AM

Whinge, bitch...bitch..bitch ...LOL
And I thought it was IPSC stood for Incessantly Picking Squabbling & Complaining !
******
IDPA has taken over now ?
Chuckle ...

------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
E-mail [email protected]
Alternate E-mail
[email protected]

flatlander · December 12, 1999, 10:59 AM

I shot IPSC for about 10 years, and watched the guns and other equipment evolve from the early Clark-style pin guns up through 38 Supers, 9X21, etc., multi-port comp scoped race guns. We loaded up here in Western Kansas and drove all the way to Florida for the FIPT in '86 - it was my first exposure to the big name shooters. Went to the Nationals twice, in '86 & '87. I was wrapped up in the sport and enjoying it enough to just ignore the internal politics; until about '92, when, as a club president, I got sucked into a few squabbles in our section that did nothing but split the section's shooters into two camps. I finally just said the hell with it and started shooting High Power. I guess when you've got the personalities that a sport like IPSC or IDPA attracts involved, you're going to have disagreements, some intense. There are still a few of us who occasionally get together to run through a course of fire or two, just to see how rusty we've gotten, and to laugh at each other. We don't fool ourselves into believing that the world of competitive pistol shooting hinges on our personal politics or theories about tactics.

Ned Roundtree · December 13, 1999, 05:34 AM

For all of its intent to spread defensive pistol shooting and tactics IDPA still has to contend with practical range safety rules. I too am saddened to see this squabble and camps of opposing IPSC and IDPA. Seems when in Rome play by the rules. But some IDPAers will bash IPSC and vice versa.

------------------
An armed society is a polite society.

[This message has been edited by Ned Roundtree (edited December 13, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Ned Roundtree (edited December 13, 1999).]

motorep · December 13, 1999, 08:49 AM

Cheapo, the range might be hardened to the rear, but the range officers aren't. Do you really think it'd be okay to use a shoulder holster, knowing that you'd be sweeping someone with it? Or, more to the point, would you be willing to be a range officer under the same circumstances? You're not dealing with professionals here....
(edit)By the way, I have allowed crossdraw holsters in my matches.
The IDPA board has at least one attorney, you will never see a practice allowed that could be construed as unsafe. Even drawing from most shoulder holsters involves sweeping yourself.

[This message has been edited by motorep (edited December 13, 1999).]

RickD · December 13, 1999, 04:33 PM

Yes, for range safety I must say that the 180 rule is the way to go. However, wasting that time to draw after turning is not sound in a few close-quarter situations I can think of.

Ye shall do as ye practice. And if range rules cause you to draw at certain times and pick up magazines when you should be shooting, well, you may avoid the five-second penalty but you could lose the fight.

Rick

------------------
"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788

motorep · December 13, 1999, 05:23 PM

RickD- you mean that when the disadvantaged youths with the blue bandanas are trying to take my Cherokee I shouldn't wait for the beep?

AZONE · December 13, 1999, 11:08 PM

Blunder,as Tuco Jaun Ramirez once said on an old spagetti western, "if you're gonna shoot.....shoot.....don't talk".

Don't worry bout not being able to draw prior to turning. That's the beauty, you're challenged under a particular situation. Don't get caught up in the "that's not realistic" philosophy or you'll end up complaining about IDPA and starting yet another acronym.

As motorep said its a safety issue. That's what sets IPSC and IDPA aside from others. (ironically, IDPA got most of its safety rules from IPSC but that's another story). A good time on the El Prezidente, if you are famaliar with it, is 4-5 secs and that's turning as you mention. In actuality, you would not be any faster of you were allowed to draw first. The trick is to time the draw perfectly to get to what you are lookin at. You can only shoot as fast as you can see, therefore, the other trick is to see your target quicker, ie.,,turning and gettin to the first target quicker and there's many ways of doing that. Bottom line is that the the fastest time is not determined by who has the gun in hand first but who hits the target first.

Motorep, you shouldn't be afraid of shoulder holsters since you don't show up to matches anymore anyway

motorep · December 14, 1999, 08:54 AM

As one of my proteges has been quoted as saying - "I'll be back...." Someone close to me passed away earlier this year, and my competitive drive was seriously diminished. That doesn't mean that I've stopped dry fire practice. The scenario with the blue bandanas wasn't made up. You know who they are...

Scaramanga · December 16, 1999, 08:59 PM

RickD: Valid points, but it's tough to prepare for every scenario. Perhaps you need to turn 180 degrees to face a threat and you want to avoid sweeping friends/family. I think most problems can be avoided by experienced shooters with good situational awarness.

------------------
Strength does not come from physical capacity.
It comes from an indomitable will. -- Mahatma Gandhi

December 8, 1999, 02:59 PM	#1
David Blinder Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Norcross, GA USA Posts: 327	I just started shooting IDPA and have a question. We had a stage where you started with your back to the target and then turned to shoot. I was taught to start the draw while turning for the economy of motion but was told that was not suitable for IDPA. Any thoughts?

December 8, 1999, 04:10 PM	#2
Ricky T Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 1999 Location: ATL, GA Posts: 197	David, That is just competition rule. It applied to all spectator shooting sport. Whether it's IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge or whatever. It's there to protect the safety officer, other competitors and spectators. It's the same reason why shoulder, small of back, fanny pack holsters are not allowed. When the gun is drawn, there's a possibility that the muzzle will cover you and/or other people. Of course these techniques and equipment are used and taught for the street, nothing wrong with that. In USPSA, they have the 180 degree rule, where you draw an imaginary line, perpendicular to the sides of the range. If your muzzle at any time crosses this line, you are disqualified. We'll discuss this next Monday night if you like. Richard

December 8, 1999, 06:30 PM	#3
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	Yeah, this and the other thread about IDPA not being all on the same page for womens' holsters illustrates my minor gripe with IDPA. They seem to be the evil-opposite to IPSC's free-for-all. Why NOT allow crossdraw, shoulder, and small of back holsters ONLY on ranges with proper uprange shot containment? Many indoor ranges are hardened in the rear. Some outdoor ranges have offset berms at the entry point. So, if you're running only the RO(s) and the shooter on the line with no spectators exposed to the rearward line of fire on a bigga-bigga boo-boo, then the safety rationale of the no real-life holsters rule is satisfied. Such a move would help keep the IDPA better at the "P" word than IPSC is. And did you realize that the "head" on the IDPA target ends about where the eyes would be on a real Practical target? Is there a Practical problem here? In suitably safe range settings (including & especially those hardened house simulators), the 180° rule would be replaced with a "don't cover the RO rule." That's practical enough, since having a partner/backup present can happen during a "practical" encounter.

December 9, 1999, 07:19 AM	#4
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	Whinge, bitch...bitch..bitch ...LOL And I thought it was IPSC stood for Incessantly Picking Squabbling & Complaining ! ****** IDPA has taken over now ? Chuckle ... ------------------ "The Gun from Down Under !" http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/ E-mail [email protected] Alternate E-mail [email protected]

December 12, 1999, 10:59 AM	#5
flatlander Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 1999 Posts: 120	I shot IPSC for about 10 years, and watched the guns and other equipment evolve from the early Clark-style pin guns up through 38 Supers, 9X21, etc., multi-port comp scoped race guns. We loaded up here in Western Kansas and drove all the way to Florida for the FIPT in '86 - it was my first exposure to the big name shooters. Went to the Nationals twice, in '86 & '87. I was wrapped up in the sport and enjoying it enough to just ignore the internal politics; until about '92, when, as a club president, I got sucked into a few squabbles in our section that did nothing but split the section's shooters into two camps. I finally just said the hell with it and started shooting High Power. I guess when you've got the personalities that a sport like IPSC or IDPA attracts involved, you're going to have disagreements, some intense. There are still a few of us who occasionally get together to run through a course of fire or two, just to see how rusty we've gotten, and to laugh at each other. We don't fool ourselves into believing that the world of competitive pistol shooting hinges on our personal politics or theories about tactics.

December 13, 1999, 05:34 AM	#6
Ned Roundtree Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 1999 Location: Lexington, KY,USA Posts: 738	For all of its intent to spread defensive pistol shooting and tactics IDPA still has to contend with practical range safety rules. I too am saddened to see this squabble and camps of opposing IPSC and IDPA. Seems when in Rome play by the rules. But some IDPAers will bash IPSC and vice versa. ------------------ An armed society is a polite society. [This message has been edited by Ned Roundtree (edited December 13, 1999).] [This message has been edited by Ned Roundtree (edited December 13, 1999).]

December 13, 1999, 08:49 AM	#7
motorep Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: mid-coast Maine Posts: 546	Cheapo, the range might be hardened to the rear, but the range officers aren't. Do you really think it'd be okay to use a shoulder holster, knowing that you'd be sweeping someone with it? Or, more to the point, would you be willing to be a range officer under the same circumstances? You're not dealing with professionals here.... (edit)By the way, I have allowed crossdraw holsters in my matches. The IDPA board has at least one attorney, you will never see a practice allowed that could be construed as unsafe. Even drawing from most shoulder holsters involves sweeping yourself. [This message has been edited by motorep (edited December 13, 1999).]

December 13, 1999, 04:33 PM	#8
RickD Junior member Join Date: November 19, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,920	Yes, for range safety I must say that the 180 rule is the way to go. However, wasting that time to draw after turning is not sound in a few close-quarter situations I can think of. Ye shall do as ye practice. And if range rules cause you to draw at certain times and pick up magazines when you should be shooting, well, you may avoid the five-second penalty but you could lose the fight. Rick ------------------ "Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788

December 13, 1999, 05:23 PM	#9
motorep Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: mid-coast Maine Posts: 546	RickD- you mean that when the disadvantaged youths with the blue bandanas are trying to take my Cherokee I shouldn't wait for the beep?

December 13, 1999, 11:08 PM	#10
AZONE Junior Member Join Date: December 13, 1998 Posts: 8	Blunder,as Tuco Jaun Ramirez once said on an old spagetti western, "if you're gonna shoot.....shoot.....don't talk". Don't worry bout not being able to draw prior to turning. That's the beauty, you're challenged under a particular situation. Don't get caught up in the "that's not realistic" philosophy or you'll end up complaining about IDPA and starting yet another acronym. As motorep said its a safety issue. That's what sets IPSC and IDPA aside from others. (ironically, IDPA got most of its safety rules from IPSC but that's another story). A good time on the El Prezidente, if you are famaliar with it, is 4-5 secs and that's turning as you mention. In actuality, you would not be any faster of you were allowed to draw first. The trick is to time the draw perfectly to get to what you are lookin at. You can only shoot as fast as you can see, therefore, the other trick is to see your target quicker, ie.,,turning and gettin to the first target quicker and there's many ways of doing that. Bottom line is that the the fastest time is not determined by who has the gun in hand first but who hits the target first. Motorep, you shouldn't be afraid of shoulder holsters since you don't show up to matches anymore anyway

December 14, 1999, 08:54 AM	#11
motorep Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: mid-coast Maine Posts: 546	As one of my proteges has been quoted as saying - "I'll be back...." Someone close to me passed away earlier this year, and my competitive drive was seriously diminished. That doesn't mean that I've stopped dry fire practice. The scenario with the blue bandanas wasn't made up. You know who they are...

December 16, 1999, 08:59 PM	#12
Scaramanga Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 1999 Posts: 165	RickD: Valid points, but it's tough to prepare for every scenario. Perhaps you need to turn 180 degrees to face a threat and you want to avoid sweeping friends/family. I think most problems can be avoided by experienced shooters with good situational awarness. ------------------ Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will. -- Mahatma Gandhi