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October 5, 2017, 03:47 PM | #101 | |
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When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
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October 5, 2017, 04:14 PM | #102 | |||
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And yes the Government and standing armies (aka GB and the King) were the source of the attempt to maintain the freedoms. The comma makes no difference, the right to keep and bear arms is clearly stated and by historical record related to the militias. A reality sub test was people owned guns, that was not in questions and frankly has zero to do with the 2nd, all attempts to change that fact aside. Agreed the Michigan militia was a read hearing, but the point was Militia is now totally out of context. ITs been replaced by the national guard which in turn is really part of the power structure of the US Military (not a bad thing but not what was intended either in the vision of the founders) Quote:
He died, so did 58 (now). Obviously determent one did not mean anything to the deranged man. Please keep the vein in context and read ALL my posts. It has to do with avaialaity , opportunity and hopefully triggers alarms and or results in a stop before it occurs. Have you read about the failure of the Maconda Oil Platform Operation? Little spill of oil in the gulf of Mexico? There were something like 6 major softies systems involved to stop that action. If ONE had been done right or worked (tested even) this would not have happened. The ban is one part of a checks system. If its no accessible (like FA generally) then you can't have it a factor. Stop it, maybe not. Slow it down, minimize it, allow a catch and complete stop, maybe. Can you prove that the death penalty ever stopped anyone from killing anyone else? Give me a break. Quote:
Try to convince the public now that ARs are not assault rifles though. It was failing before, calling the MSA is now a sick joke. The point is it should be part of a discussion and not ruled out from ownership, but it may be one that you want to have enhanced protocol in place as to ownership. Fee, tracking, registered.
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October 5, 2017, 04:23 PM | #103 |
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I dont have a real problem with bump fire stocks being REGULATED but I do have a problem with FORCED surrender of the devices.
Especially since the ATF gave their "blessing" already. No way it would fly today that they just randomly outlaw them and call you a "felon" for having one when they were " A-OK" before hand.... Any regulation on these must come from real legislation. Yes, we could open a registry like the pre 1986 NFA one and serialize them (I guess, they are all plastic thought). Limit one per person, transferable with $200 tax stamp. We dont know how many of these are out in the wild but very fun gun people have them. Certainly would be less than 25k total id imagine. We knew this day would come for bump fire stocks, only question is, when will it come for Tannerite (binary explosives)? That's probably the next "loophole" someone might use.... It almost make you wonder what his real motives were. To force a ban on "assault weapons" ? To force a ban on bump fire stocks? |
October 5, 2017, 04:25 PM | #104 | |
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October 5, 2017, 04:40 PM | #105 | ||
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Do you understand that the same standard would call into question the efficacy of "serious penalties" for owning a slide-fire stock? Quote:
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October 5, 2017, 04:42 PM | #106 | |||
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JoeSixpack:
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Also JSP: Quote:
Also JSPack: Quote:
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October 5, 2017, 04:42 PM | #107 | |
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Indeed. |
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October 5, 2017, 04:49 PM | #108 |
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The argument against this implement is specious to the point of incredulity. If you ban bump fire stocks you've got to do away with Jerry Miculek or at least prevent him from earning a living shooting firearms fast. Lmao. You even remoting believe he is the only person alive with those skills? I mean, think of the children. Give me a freaking break. I'm out. Takes at least two fools to argue an unassailable fact.
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October 5, 2017, 04:52 PM | #109 | ||
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Are we having an economics discussion? I thought your argument was based on end result outcome. Since the outcome can be achieved without a stock in which case YOU COULD NOT REGULATE THAT unless you decide to have some sort of "speed limit" law for guns.. no firing more then 1 round per second. All you need is 2 hands, a trigger that's light enough and a gun that recoils heavy enough and you can bump fire. Quote:
If your argument they should be banned is based on prevention I think you will agree it would not have prevented his plans. In fact it would not even have altered his plans, He could have carried them out exactly as he did without modification. Not only that but he did not need all of those guns and I bet you'll find most of them went unfired.. he could have done this with as little as 1 rifle. bucket/bottle of water on the gun after every mag dump would have kept temperatures from going out of control. I bet by the time everything is said and done not counting the handgun he probably killed him self with I bet 6 or fewer rifles was fired. |
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October 5, 2017, 05:14 PM | #110 | ||
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https://www.slidefire.com/how-it-works No, apparently, we aren't having any type of discussion, b/c I'm pointing out that this item--by intent and design--circumvents a well-known law that governs full-auto firearms and that removing it from the market would be consistent policy enforcement--consistency being a positive trait in law enforcement policy. You keep talking about how I'm worried about outcomes. I'm not. JSP: Quote:
B. They should be banned b/c the law to ban their designed purpose is already on the books and has been for a generation not because I think they should be banned. Again, take this up with your representative. C. I agree whole heartedly that a person who wishes to do ill to others will do so no matter what the law or human nature says about correct behavior.
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October 5, 2017, 05:30 PM | #111 | ||
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October 5, 2017, 05:34 PM | #112 | |
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zukiphile:
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Recoil from the discharged round will cycle the action and return the firearm back to the rear position. Maintaining a light and consistent forward pressure will continue the firing sequence.
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October 5, 2017, 05:36 PM | #113 | ||||
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The rear of the gun slides back and forth, It has a place for you to rest your finger, The gun recoils and you put tension forward on teh gun's stock with your supporting hand. As you do this the trigger hits your finger and is actuated and the gun discharges again. Technically your finger is actuating the trigger every time, and the trigger is being manipulated every time.. in case you're unaware of how a full auto actually works you hold the trigger down and the hammer is automatically released.. meaning 1 trigger pull many cycles. So like I said the gun is technically still firing semi automatic no matter how impressed you might be personally. Quote:
The gun still falls short of what true full auto is not to mention the gun is jiggling around on you.. apparently the rate of fire worries you but you can't seem to quantify exactly at what point the rate of fire becomes a concern of your. Media clocked the gunmen at 600rpm, wiki says full auto m16 700-950 so at the very least the numbers aren't up to full auto.. you can say well they're close enough but how close is close enough? Quote:
But if that's your attitude Im not sure what else we have to discuss. Quote:
You wanna treat these bump stocks like automatic weapons but you don't wanna talk about automatic (classified under the law) weapons. Ok something we can agree on, I'll take it. |
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October 5, 2017, 06:35 PM | #114 | ||
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That's what all semi-auomatic arms do. The stock isn't doing anything magical and doesn't enable a rifle to shoot more than once per trigger pull. That may be part of the reason people will be uncomfortable with any legislative language that outlaws slide fire stocks; it would be a prohibition on what is merely semi-automatic fire. That can be the not very thin end of a wedge.
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http://www.npboards.com/index.php Last edited by zukiphile; October 5, 2017 at 06:59 PM. |
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October 5, 2017, 06:41 PM | #115 | |||||
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JSP:
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Yeah, actually, I have seen one, at a distance. A buddy (ex-mil, if that gives me reflected internet-ninja cred) sent me a video of him using one a few years ago. We agreed A> it was very cool. B> it was a borderline violation of NFA. C> that someone was going to use one and get the rest of us in hot water. Here we are in the hot tub time machine. JSP: Quote:
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JSP: Quote:
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October 5, 2017, 06:56 PM | #116 | |
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Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
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October 5, 2017, 07:11 PM | #117 |
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What would the BATF need to do exactly . It was my understanding they correctly interpreted the law in saying these were legal . But of course that's what I think , I'm a gun guy haha . What doofus47 seems to be missing is that we are a nation of laws and those laws have detailed text explaining them . Under the current laws and how it reads , the slide fire stock is not illegal . One bullet is discharged for every one pull of the trigger . That is not the definition of full auto which has it's own legal definition . If the firearm does not meat that legal definition it's not a full auto firearm . Even if it shot 1k rounds a minute it would still be a semi automatic firearm by definition because it only discharges one round for every one pull of the trigger .
How does the BATF regulate around that with out screwing up the definition of semi automatic ? What might the wording be as to not be challenged in court because we know the owners of the slide fire patent sure aren't going to like what's about to likely happen .
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October 5, 2017, 07:14 PM | #118 |
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I wrote the NRA and the ILA about how stupid requesting a new look at the legality of bump fire stocks was. I don't have one and I don't see me ever wanting one but there is nothing evil about the stock. One man used a bump fire stock to kill a lot of people while shooting from 320 feet in the air at a 5000 square yard area packed wall to wall with people. It is surprising that he didn't hit more but there was no accuracy involved in his act it was just spray and spray some more.
If the bump stock was the cause, what about the gun? or the ammo? or the 100 round magazines? It's OK to let then take away bump stocks because I don't have one? NO! it's not OK! It is just one more piece of straw or one more small paper cut. Go after the real cause. If you deal with the violence then there won't be any gun violence. If you take away the guns then we will have more knife violence and more baseball bat violence and more physical violence. The violent use of a tool does not make the tool bad. Only the violence is bad. I recommend that you all write, call, or email the NRA and ILA to tell them we don't want to feed the giant any more. We want to get rid of the giant and never have to feed it again, EVER. |
October 5, 2017, 07:21 PM | #119 |
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Feinstein's Bumpfire Ban Bill
Here is the problem with any more gun laws: They don't stop ANYTHING! Before making SCHOOLS GUN FREE ZONES- a few school shootings. AFTER making schools GUN FREE ZONES- many more school shootings. Banning interstate gun sales to private citizens after JFK's assassination stopped nothing. Strict rules on guns in Chicago and many large cities- stopped nothing. Banning bump fire stocks will stop nothing- Why? its EASY to bump fire a semi auto without ANY new stock or alteration. The anti-gun lobby ALWAYS wants to pass more gun laws, pass more restrictions on gun owners each time a madman or criminal commits murder. You can't legislate away murder. You can't stop murder by banning guns. Bombs, aircraft, trucks, cars, pressure cookers, poison, machetes, and thousands of other things can murder people. Are they going to ban all of these things? They will try if we let them! Its all about control and power over our RIGHTS.
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October 5, 2017, 07:27 PM | #120 | |
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So right off the bat, a BATF opinion won't change any legal definitions and it won't be a new regulation. There is no definition (nor mention) in the actual law of bump-fire stocks which is why a BATF opinion was issued on the topic. Assuming that they changed their mind after looking at the facts, they would reverse their previous ruling.
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October 5, 2017, 08:23 PM | #121 | |||||||
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You are wrong there. BATF has ruled various issues in the past as the law is written and then regulation are put in placed and enforced (or not)
Take the case of the H&R Handi gun. It clearly is NOT a sawed off shotgun. It is illegal. Put a spiral in the tube and its interpreted to be legal. That's not the law, that's the regs put in place by the BTAF. BATF is wrong, but you have to have congress enact a specific law to repute it. If it flies like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it has duck DNA, then its a duck. All this Clinton attempt to slice the dice it is spurious. The BATF could have ruled otherwise, they did not. They should have. Quote:
The point is that the BATF does not have to come after you, by default, they will never be seen in public and they are a possible financial disaster waiting to happen to the owner if found during other exposures Said owner usually has a SO, possibly kids, brothers, sites parent etc. None of who want that burdon on the family. They will be kept hidden, buried etc. Few will escape into the wild. Fewer sill will escape into the wild and into the hands of the nut case. He had the money but did not buy FA weapons because he knew that would get attention. Don't try to BS me or twist this into some theoretic mumbo jumbo. You want to keep your guns, you want to see the carnage continue, you don't care as long as you can, fine, the Constitution says you can. I will disagree totally with your view, but I will defend to the death your right to have it. I will also work my best to change what you can or can't do to the rest of the country with that view. I likely will fail, but I would rather have tried and failed than to take your view. Wrong again, anything that make it more difficult is worth it. Read the Maconda Report. Just a single one of the 6 mechanism to stop a blowout if it had not been compromised would have stopped it. Quote:
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Surrender would be your choice, as noted with the H&R, the penalties are severe. Reality wise, having followed it, they usually just take the gun and that's the end of it. Quote:
Well good for you. It as just spray, that killed 58 people. Your point? So maybe there things that can be done. Register semi auto? Data base for owners? Sunset it in 10 years, see how it did. Its gun valance that kills large amounts of people. You can slow it down. Kind of hard to knife 58 people. Quote:
Really, 500 rpm is not an AR? No mam, that's an MSA. right mell Quote:
We will know more in a week or so.
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Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not Last edited by JohnKSa; October 5, 2017 at 09:24 PM. Reason: Language |
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October 5, 2017, 09:02 PM | #122 |
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He hit 600 people. HIT them,
You can figure 15-20% hit rate, max. Do the math. |
October 5, 2017, 09:05 PM | #123 |
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I don't know how many total rounds was fired, the 600rpm rate was based on teh news count of 10 seconds of video.
Im not sure what the hit rate will turn out to be, he was spraying but it was also a large target even at 4-500 yards.. at least in the beginning. I'd imagine the hit rate at the start was probably extremely high. |
October 5, 2017, 09:06 PM | #124 | |
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Using your estimate of 5000 rounds fired in ten minutes, the bump stock is so effective that with 20,000 people crammed into a two-acre area at between 300m and 400m and plunging fire, a little over 10% of the rounds fired struck a target. |
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October 5, 2017, 09:07 PM | #125 |
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5000 rounds and only 58 killed. I would say we are lucky he was so unsuccessful.
Millions of dollars and willing to die — we are lucky the damage was what it was. A lot less funding and box cutters killed thousands and did millions in damages along with changing life styles of millions. |
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