.357 VS .45

[Dragger34]

Not really doing the typical caliber debate of which is better, just want an honest comparison between the two, fired from the same platform, pros and cons of each.

I'm familiar with the .45, have never fired a .357. Hows the recoil between the two? Velocity? Energy?

[UncleEd]

In .45 are you talking .45 Colt or .45 ACP?

Either way, the .357 at its strongest is a ferocious noisemaker and depending on the revolver, such as a Model 19, quite a kicker.

But the ACP with its heavy bullet and bigger bore is quite a smack-down caliber as well. It just doesn't take care of business so loudly and with a lot less buck.

[Dragger34]

Oh sorry, ACP

[Ferretboy]

I own a .357 mag and a .45 ACP, granted 2 different platforms, but, I consider the two complimentary. I carry one or the other just about every time I leave the house. I consider the .357 to be a little more accurate at slow fire but the .45 better at rapid. If you put +P in the .45 there isn't much differnece in power from what I have read, but, could be wrong.

[FinalJenemba]

And since you're talking about 45ACP, are you asking about the 357 Magnum or the 357 SIG?

[gav1230]

Aren't .357 sig and .357 magnum similar in performance? I thought the .357 sig was designed to replicate the magnum in an automatic format.

[Deaf Smith]

Ok let's define platforms and ammo.

Say Colt Commander (all steel) .45 at 35 oz and S&W 686 4 inch bbl .357 at also about 35 oz.

And .45 230gr JHP at 850 (Hydrashocks) and Federal 125gr JHPs at 1400 fps.

The .357 load as a bit less momentum than the .45 load BUT the .45's slide movement dampens recoil somewhat. If both have good grips they should recoil about the same.

The .357s blast should be louder due to the higher pressures.

Both will work and do well with good ammo.

Aren't .357 sig and .357 magnum similar in performance? I thought the .357 sig was designed to replicate the magnum in an automatic format.

Yes they are.


Deaf

[weblance]

As far as the ability to stop a human attack, both are about perfect. Those 2 are the best at that job, compared to all other cartridges. The difference comes in the handguns that each is chambered for. The 357 revolver delivers all of its recoil right into the web of your hand, and in a light weight carry revolver, can be punishing. The 45acp, usually chambered in an autoloader, absorbs alot of recoil in the locked breech style action. Recoil is reduced. I have an FNX-45, and 5 different 357 revolvers. I like them all, but if the SHTF, I want that FNX-45 in my hand. 16 rounds of 45acp beats 5,6 or 7 rounds of 357 every time. I hope I didnt over state the obvious.

[Nick_C_S]

I like that, Ferretboy: "complimentary." I agree.

Assuming we're talking 45ACP and 357Mag. I have four 357's, and one 1911 45ACP.

The 357 has more muzzle energy - by a pretty good margin. Statistically, I believe the 357 has one of the best one-shot neutralization statistics in the real world (I don't mean to start a debate on O.S.N. statistics).

At any rate, the 357 is a rippin' round. There's lots of variables, but the 357 tends to kick harder than the 45. But depending on the size of the gun and the bullets used, that can reverse.

The 45 has the advantage of already being a "big hole" purely due to caliber - never discount that. The bullet doesn't really need to expand - it's already kind of there, so to speak.

Many find the recoil of the 45 to be stout, but manageable. I agree. To me, it is plenty strong to where you know you just released some juice, but not so strong as to be bothersome.

I have faith in the effectiveness of both rounds.

But at the end of the day, my nightstand gun is a .357 Magnum. Not so much due to the caliber, but the platform. If I ever find myself in a defensive situation, I hope I have a big fat revolver in my hand.

[silvermane_1]

man had the same discussion with a college buddy of his about the .357 Mag. VS .45 ACP, the man's name was Dan Coonan, enough said.

[Nick_C_S]

The .357s blast should be louder due to the higher pressures.

Heh, should be? Hell yeah it is. It's a lot louder. The 357 is literally deafening and pretty much emits the entire audible sound spectrum (and then some, I'm sure).

The 45, while loud, has a distinctive low-pitched, "throaty" sound, and overall, not nearly as loud.

There's no comparison.

[Nick_C_S]

16 rounds of 45acp beats 5,6 or 7 rounds of 357 every time. I hope I didnt over state the obvious.

The strategy I intend to employ is to hit what I aim at. The plan is to have 5 rounds remaining in my revolver at the end of the engagement.

[Dragger34]

The difference in loudness might also be attributed to most .45's being subsonic?

[Nick_C_S]

The difference in loudness might also be attributed to most .45's being subsonic?

I think it's mostly due to the pressure difference. That's a question for the experts, I suppose.

I do like the "tone" of the 45. It's very throaty and macho. 45's are great - I'm not picking sides.

I think the 45 is more forgiving with shot placement and less dependent on bullet design. A 357's shot placement is more critical because the high velocity round is far more dependent on bullet expansion to disperse the energy into the target. But when it goes right, it's devastating.

A 357 FMJ round nose would be just about useless, for example. A 45 200g LSWC target round would still put the serious hurt to a bad guy - Splat!

It don't matter much what you throw out of a 45 - it's gonna be nasty.

[allaroundhunter]

Originally Posted by Nick_C_S

The strategy I intend to employ is to hit what I aim at. The plan is to have 5 rounds remaining in my revolver at the end of the engagement.

I guess you also don't plan to attend a defensive handgun class, either?

Seriously. While the .357 has plenty of power, only expecting to shoot once and see the bad guy go down is a recipe for disaster... And for missing any follow up shots that you may come to find out that you need after looking up to see how your first round did.

[Dragger34]

Anyone that plans on only hitting their target one time, remember, more than 80% of gun battles require more than 1 hit to take out the threat immediately. Regardless of caliber, only a shot to the brain or spinal column will physically stop a threat right then. Even a shot to the heart will leave someone able to shoot back at you for several seconds later.

I hope I never have to shoot anyone, but if a threat puts me in that position, I'm going to squeeze-n-repeat until the threat is no longer a threat.

[Nick_C_S]

I have attended a couple defensive handgun classes.

I'm in California; you don't double-tap here. You're automatically guilty if you do that.

I didn't say I wouldn't fire a subsequent shot(s). My point was to emphasize the importance of shot placement. And to de-emphasize the importance of having a 16 round mag capacity.

Just for the record, George Zimmerman fired once.

[44 AMP]

honest comparison between the two, fired from the same platform, pros and cons of each.

rather than jump directly to the cartridges performances, lets focus for a moment on your question about how the compare, fired from the same platform... (and I will assume platform refers to the gun, and not the location where you are shooting)

First off, there are very few platforms that can shoot both rounds. The choices of identical guns (same model,...same size, weight, barrel length, etc.) is very small.

Basically you are looking at a large frame DA revolver (S&W N frame), a Single action revolver (Colt SAA, or clone Ruger Blackhawk or new Vaquero) the T/C Contender single shot pistol, and, if you can find one, an LAR Grizzly.
All these guns are, or have been available in both .45acp and .357 Magnum.

And, you want full house loads to compare with, as target loads really don't tell you anything useful. So now we look at cartridge performance. And you must also decide if you accept the "one shot stop" rating concept, and the data supporting it.

But that is a whole different discussion than one about how they feel to shoot, which is what you are asking, right?

Well, in the same platform, what you are looking at is the difference in the feel between the two, and that comes from the energy being launched downrange. Equal and opposite, no getting around that fact. Autoloaders don't really "absorb" any of the recoil energy, they just seem to. And this is because they change the rate of energy transfer, changing the feel of the recoil in our hands, compared to a fixed breech pistol. Autoloaders also add in the weight & momentum of the moving slide to the feel of the recoil. Not to the actual recoil energy, but to the way we feel it.

But either revolver or auto (or single shot) as long as you stay with the same platform, then all you are looking at is what each round does in that platform, and can discout the difference in feel between a revolver and an autoloader.

The .45acp develops 360ish ft/lbs of energy. The hottest loads up this a bit. The .357 delivers over 500 ft/lbs. And remember this is also the energy coming back at you as recoil. Here's an example...

Ruger Blackhawk, shooting with a normal single action grip (allowing the gun to roll in the hand, as opposed to a DA style "locked down" tight grip hold), the .45ACP lifts the barrel 35 to 50 degrees depending on the load (in my hands). The .357 is nearly double that, depending on the load. One could do a scientific comparison with a machine rest removing the shooter variables. I don't have one of those.

For the rest of it, compared to the .45, the .357 is a fire breathing dragon. The much louder report of the magnum is not because of it being supersonic, its supersonic because of the pressure (type and amount of powder being burned) which also results in the louder blast. Also there is something about the .357 bore size at those speeds which produces a stunning report, seems to be worse than a .44 or .45 caliber at the same speeds. Its..sharper, for lack of a better term.

In the same platform, .357 will "kick" harder (somewhere about 25% but everyone feels it differently) and blast louder (NEVER shoot without hearing protection of some kind unless a life hangs in the balance, as far as I'm concerned)

In a full size, reasonably heavy gun the .45acp is mellow, and the full .357 is manageable. In a compact gun the .45 can be managed, but the .357 turns vicious. Not sure what else you want to know, but will give any answers I can.

Oh, yeah, one other thing, the .357 SIG. Its a neat round, but kind of a one trick pony. It was designed to replicate one particular .357mag load, the 125grJHP from a 4" barrel. And this it does, pretty well. However it can't quite match the other, heavier bullet loadings that the .357 Magnum has.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by silvermane_1

man had the same discussion with a college buddy of his about the .357 Mag. VS .45 ACP, the man's name was Dan Coonan, enough said.

I have 45 ACP (mostly 1911 platforms, but one Taurus and one Ruger Blackhawk) and a Coonan (1911 platform, for those who don't know it).

I found not enough said because I did not hear your (their?) conclusions.

My Coonan is louder and has stouter recoil than my 45s.

My .357 revolvers recoil harder and louder than my 45 revolver firing 45 ACP. But the Blackhawk is heavier than my .357s, which lessens the felt recoil.

For social work, the terminal ballistics have been beat to death in many threads on many forums.

I hope my perspective helped.

Lost Sheep

[jmr40]

From long, 6"+ barrels, shooting heavier bullets the 357 generates a lot more power and accuracy than you will get from typical 5" and shorter barreled autos in 45 ACP. I think the 357 in this format is a decent hunting/outdoors gun for medium size game up to mid size black bear, a good choice for target shooting, or as a good combo gun for someone wanting 1 do it all gun.

In shorter 4 barrels, shooting typical 125 gr bullets a 357 mag will just barely outperform the best 9mm loads. In sub 3" barrels a 9mm wins. For personal protection from human threats I believe 45, 40 or even 9mm semi's are a better choice. You get enough perfromance to get the job done without the extreme recoil and muzzle blast you will get from a 357. And in a more compact gun holding as much as 3X more rounds.

While popular the compact snub 357 make zero sense to me. They are the loudest, harshest kicking of all personal protection guns, yet they can't even match 9mm performance. But in a longer barreled, full size gun a 357 can deliver awesome power and accuracy. From bigger guns recoil and blast are noticeable, but tolerable in my opinion.

[Mystro]

The 45acp is easier on the ears and not as obnoxiously snappy with the recoil. I can shoot the 45acp faster and more accurately and all that really matters in the end. The 357mag is a great trail gun. I personally would take a 45lc in a revolver if I had to choose a defensive revolver.

[allaroundhunter]

Originally Posted by Nick_C_S

Just for the record, George Zimmerman fired once.

Should we also discuss everything else that he did right?

[dahermit]

The strategy I intend to employ is to hit what I aim at. The plan is to have 5 rounds remaining in my revolver at the end of the engagement.

Not a "double-tap" man I take it? For "engagements", I will always do two, maybe more.

[CDW4ME]

Similar platforms:
Data obtained with my pistols & chrono averages.

45 acp:
Glock 30 (8 + 1 with flush fitting mag) / 36 (6 + 1):
Winchester Ranger T 230 gr. @ 874 fps / 390# KE

357 Sig:
Glock 32 (13 + 1):
Winchester Ranger T 125 gr. @ 1,340 fps / 499# KE

Glock 33 (9 + 1):
Winchester Ranger T 125 gr. @ 1,280 fps / 454# KE

Decisions, decisions...
-Diameter vs KE
-Capacity vs caliber

Which is "better" or "best" ????

[SD Handgunner]

Not sure what I can add to what has already been said but will try and relate some of my personal experiences.

In the course of working I have had to shoot many whitetail deer with whatever duty handgun I was carrying at the time. Early on in my career it was a 4" .357 Magnum Revolver or a 5" Coonan Arms Model B .357 Magnum Semi Auto. Later years I have carried and used both different 9mm and .45 ACP Handguns.

Some of you have talked about Foot Pounds of Energy. Well your typical 125gr. JHP .357 Magnum Loading is cataloged to produce 1450 FPS / 584 FPE. Typical .45 ACP numbers have been cited but one load I have used for years has not. That load is the Remington 185gr. +P JHP which is cataloged to produce 1140 FPS / 534 FPS. In actual chronograph performance it has been my experience that the .357 Magnum 4" Revolver falls a little short of the cataloged performance but the cataloged performance from a 5" .45 ACP is really close to what is actually achieved.

At the onset I mentioned shooting Whitetail Deer at vehicle / deer accidents. For the most part I have used either the Federal 125gr. JHP from a 4" .357 Magnum Revolver or the Remington 185gr. +P JHP from a 4.6" to 5" Semi Auto. While the actual produced energy each cartridge / gun platform produced was very close to the same the results to the animal were very different. In my opinion and from what I have seen going to +P JHP's in the .45 ACP while closely matching the Foot Pound of Energy that the .357 Magnum produces the outcome is far from the same, in favor of the .45 ACP +P.

As to the noise again there is no comparison. Let's face it no matter what ammo is used in either the .357 Magnum utilizes much more powder (in some loadings depending on the powder up to 3 times as much as a .45 ACP) to achieve it's performance and is burning that powder in a smaller diameter barrel (less cubic inches of barrel to burn the powder) so it is naturally going to produce more muzzle blast.

In comparing the .357 Magnum to the .45 ACP in terms of recoil in both a Coonan Arms Model B .357 Magnum Semi Auto and a 1911 .45 ACP Semi Auto, once again the .357 Magnum produces more felt recoil and more muzzle rise. If you look at the formula for calculating free recoil the numbers that go into that formula are Gun Weight, Powder Charge Weight, Bullet Weight and Muzzle Velocity.

In the end I guess I am sort of old school and much prefer the good ole .45 ACP in it's many different power levels that are achievable these days.

Larry