357 180 grain bullets

[Bucksnort1]

I load 357 in various bullet weights and styles.

I am behind the curve when it comes to lead hardness so bear with me. If I find a good deal on lead bullets, I am not concerned with hardness only a good deal.

Oregon Trail sells 180 grain LSWC (Brinell 15) bullets. My Lyman Load Data pamphlet for 357 has a recipe for 180 grain Saeco, (#2 alloy #354) bullets.

Question: Is it ok to load the Oregon Trail 180 grain LSWC bullets using the Lyman recipe for Saeco bullets? Lyman calls for 11.1 grains of 2400.

Question: The same pamphlet shows data for 180 grain JHP bullets in 357 using 10.0 grains of 2400. Why is the powder charge for the JHP lower than for the lead Saeco bullet?

Firearm is Rossi 93 for 38/357.

[P Flados]

Seating depth is the key consideration for both of your questions.

Using data for a different cast bullet should be OK as long as you use the same or a slightly shorter seating depth. Figuring out the seating depth of the published load can be a problem.

The different max allowable charge for the two different bullets was most likely caused by the bullet with the smaller charge having a longer seating depth than the other one.

FYI, many 180 gr bullets end up with a COAL longer than SAAMI max when seated in a 357 Mag case to the crimp groove. I worked up a 180 gr load for a Henry lever gun using a rifle profile bullet. When a assembled a dummy round using 357 mag brass, it would not feed through the gun. I did an initial workup using 38 SP brass to see if the gun liked the bullet. Once I found a load that the gun liked, I trimmed some 357 brass to 38 Sp length for "routine use" with the 180 gr bullet.

[Bucksnort1]

P Flador,

Thank you for the response. I understand how case capacity relates to pressure. The Lyman manual indicates a length of 1.590" but length not listed for Oregon. Before I contact them, I will seat, without powder or primer, a 357 JHP bullet to 1.50" then see if it will cycle in the rifle.

Again, thank you.



Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

[Bucksnort1]

P Flados,

Regarding these 180 grain bullets, here is a hypothetical situation.

Tell me if I'm wrong or right.

For this example, everything is the same except OAL. One OAL is shorter than the other. Pressure in the shorter OAL would be somewhat more than the other OAL. Is this correct?

[Bucksnort1]

P Flados

Please explain the following. My Lyman Load Data pamphlet shows the 180 grain Saeco lead bullet with 11.1 grains of 2400 and, it shows the 180 grain JHP bullet with 10 grains of 2400. These are starting loads. Velocity for the lead bullet is 1,012 fps and velocity for the JHP is 597 fps. Also, the seating difference between the two bullets is .005". That's not much.

Why the difference?

[P Flados]

The problem is that the load data gives you COAL but does not list either seating depth or bullet length.

180 gr bullet length and design seating depth can vary quite a bit.

For example the 180 TC Saeco (mold 396) is longer than the 180 RNFP Saeco (mold 353). The longer bullet also has a shorter nose such that it will seat a lot deeper.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/media/wy...lds_alt1_1.jpg

With an actual bullet length and COAL, I can run you a Quickload table. This is not as good as real test data, but it is something. Also provide actual barrel length if you want a run.

[Nick_C_S]

For this example, everything is the same except OAL. One OAL is shorter than the other. Pressure in the shorter OAL would be somewhat more than the other OAL. Is this correct?

I'll answer this: Yes.

More specifically, the depth in which you've seated the bullet effects pressure. Variables abound, but basically, the less internal volume where the propellant resides, the more "pointy" the pressure curve will be. i.e., the pressure will rise faster and higher. It'll literally behave like it's a faster powder. Again, variables abound and that's just a simple "high-level" explanation and leaves lots of room for nit-pickers to jump in and disagree.

If the bullet you are loading has a crimp groove, you should seat it there (or at least, that's how it was designed to be loaded). OAL is secondary - it's just something to measure, if you feel so inclined.

In the case of 180gn bullets, often they have two crimp grooves (or cannelures, if jacketed) - The lower groove is to seat in 38 cases, if you want them the same OAL if seated in the upper groove in 357 cases. It's a little weird and I never used them that way.

[44 AMP]

The Lyman manual indicates a length of 1.590" but length not listed for Oregon.

Take a good look at your Lyman manual. Where is that COAL listed? Is it listed in the data for that 180gr bullet? Are there any different COALs listed with different bullets??

1.590" is the industry standard max loaded length for the .357 Magnum cartridge, no matter what bullet is used.

Industry standard max length is set to allow the ammo to function through every gun made to industry standard for that caliber.

And, its not a "dare not exceed" length, tis a "should not or you MIGHT have function issues" length.

In other words, if you load longer than the max standard, your bullet might stick out the front of the cylinder (not good) or might not feed from the magazine (also not good) but if you load to industry standard length or less, you should not have those issues.

Next point, when you do have data that gives a certain COAL with a certain bullet (and it will be 1.590" or less, almost always less) Is that the length the data creator is recommending? OR, is it simply the result they GOT when seating to a given point (such as seating to the crimp groove)???

An easily seen example of this is some rifle bullets. Take a .30 cal 150gr spitzer and a 150gr flat point or round nose (such as a .30-30 bullet. Seat them to identical depth in the case, so there is no difference at all in powder space volume. There WILL BE a difference in the COAL. The flat point, will be shorter.

The difference is due to the difference is the shape and length of the bullet NOSE, the part outside the case. This principle applies to pistol bullets as well. its just a little more difficult to easily see...

Just for comparison, I grabbed an old (1970) Lyman manual. It doesn't even list a 180gr cast bullet. But it DOES list a 195gr cast bullet #358430 (#2 alloy). Test gun was a S&W model 27. 2400 powder, starting load 9.5gr, max 11.0gr

So, I would say it should be ok to load your Oregon Trail bullet with the Lyman data, PROVIDED you do the recommended and smart thing, start low and work up to the listed load, carefully, in small steps watching for anything indicating excess pressure. DO NOT START AT LISTED MAX, EVER.

Most gun and ammo combinations fall in the middle of the bell curve. BUT extremes at each end do exist, and there is no way to know if YOUR gun and your ammo is at either extreme end, until you shoot it.

IF your gun/ammo combination is one of the rare ones, and at the low end of the range, you might not be able to reach the listed load in the data before getting pressure issues. Starting low, and working up in small steps allows you to see if those issues happen and stop when they do. Even if you haven't reached the listed data charge weigh, you stop.

Point here is that published data and industry standards are guidelines (and good ones!!) but are set well below actual safety boundaries. IF you exceed the guidelines, you're off the map and into the part that says "there be dragons here!"

So you must tread carefully, so a dragon doesn't eat you. People have done it successfully, and people have been "eaten".

Best practice, stay on the map!

[Mike / Tx]

To answer the initial question about why the lead data list higher than the jacketed, is that the lead will usually have less resistance through the bore than the jacketed will thus "usually" producing less press for the same load. There are various variations to that so consider it as a very generic rule.

Most mold makers will also use the SAMMI OAL as a starting point when designing their molds for a particular weight bullet. Revolvers are pretty basic due to having a crimp groove in a somewhat predetermined location based upon the caliber. This, like mentioned before, allows the bullets to be seated correctly for the particular caliber for which it was poured. Having two crimp grooves on some allows for use in say the 38/357 or 44SPL/Mag type cases. Even with 45 calibers you can have the 45C/454 or so cases that one could use the same bullets in.

44 AMP pretty much nailed it, find the weight, measure your depth, start low and work up. Personally I have found that the Accurate powders give good accuracy and velocities with cast loads and usually have just as broad a span on charge weights as say 2400 and especially 296/110 when pertaining to the magnum type loads.

I myself am running 170'ish grain bullets out of my GP-100's with AA-9 and they shoot great. I just haven't had a need for anything heavier at this point.

Hope that helps.

[Bucksnort1]

44 AMP,

You replied with, take a good look at your Lyman manual. Where is that COAL listed? Is it listed in the data for that 180gr bullet? Are there any different COALs listed with different bullets??

The OAL is published for every caliber and bullet weight.

180 grain JHP is 1.585"

180 grain SAECO lead is 1.590"

[Unclenick]

Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL

You want that result to match using both bullets at their respective COLs.

Another way to learn the Seating Depth number is to measure your bullet from its base to its crimp groove. That is its seating depth, assuming you use the crimp groove.

[ammo.crafter]

Missouri Bullets is a good source for your question.

As others have stated same weight bullets have different profiles thus affecting COL and pressure and feeding issues.

Are you looking for a specific BHN as well?

I use 180gr .357/.358 for my 357Maximum and always crimp on the crimping groove.

[44 AMP]

The OAL is published for every caliber and bullet weight.

180 grain JHP is 1.585"

180 grain SAECO lead is 1.590"

I asked because different manuals and different editions of manuals use different formats. Today it many manuals have a COAL given for each bullet. Some manuals do not, and simply give the SAAMI COAL max limit.

Since there is only a very small (.005") difference and that one of them is also the SAAMI max COAL limit, I would think that the nose of the JHP is just that much shorter than the SAECO lead bullet.

If the bullet has a crimp groove or cannelure, seat to that. As long as the COAL is at or under SAMMI max COAL, you're good to go.

[Unclenick]

With cast bullets, from the standpoint of what pressure the gun will see, you don't need to worry much about the BHN number. Lead and lead alloys are soft enough that the bullet's inertia is more significant in contributing to what the pressure builds against than the difficulty of starting the bullet into the throat. The difference won't be zero but will be within the pressure variation SAAMI normally expects to see. The interior ballistics programs give all lead bullets the same start pressure value for this reason.

Where BHN does make a difference is in how hot you can load before the pressure distorts the bullet base and compromises accuracy. For higher pressure, harder bullets do hold their shapes better.