How can a simple hug cause a weapon to discharge?

[Tom Servo]

Detroit police are issued the S&W M&P in .40.

[Smilin Jack]

Sounds like a lap dance gone awry.....

[Tickling]

I think this article being "anti-gun" propaganda might be taking things a bit far. From reading the mother's comments at the end of the article it sounds like she'll be after some money. So that would explain why the police haven't released any details.

If the story happened how it says it happened.. The only physical way for it to occur would for him to be bent over forwards and her to be leaning over or on her knees. Maybe a hug and then a fall?

I think either A) the cops are keeping details out of the press, or B) this off-duty cop and the mother are trying to protect the decease's dignity.

I just hope that the department the officer involved is from isn't running the investigation

[Cheapshooter]

I have seen no mention of what make of gun it was. One article says a gun with no safety on the trigger. Another shows a picture of a Sig 228.
Detroit Free Press article headline, and quote.
Story headline:

Trigger of officer's gun in accidental party shooting had no safety, police say

Quote from Detroit police:

It's possible, Godbee said, that the trigger of the department-issued gun, which does not have a safety, could be manipulated through the soft holster it was being carried on the officer's waist.

Just not adding up? Or typically poor journalism?

[sigcurious]

What comes to mind for me when I read the article and what few details are available, pantsing gone wrong. It would explain the victim hugging/tugging at his waist from behind and being in position that would put her chest in line with a discharge from a holstered firearm. Or Perhaps she was on the ground trying to use the officer as leverage to get up? Granted, there would still need to be a deficiency in the holster, such as softened leather.

[learningcurve]

Ok I might have over looked this point. However I will put it up just the same. Not taking a side to any of it I was just thinking, How many times do you see videos of men and women dancing where they do that move where they put there butts as close to the ground while holding onto the waste or anything else they can get ahold of.

Perhaps and I am by no means a expert at dancing or anything like that but it could explain the angle of the round leaving the barrel. She could have been attempting to get back up from a move she couldnt make do to alchohol or lack of balance or any number of things. I saw a video on tru tv last night of a club or something where the people dancing where doing that move and for some reason that came to mind while I was reading the story.

Either way I would hate to be in either families shoes right now. I never set out with the thought of I will be shooting today when I put my gun on to just step out to the store. If I ever do I doubt I will be able to sleep at night for quite awhile.

Just a thought or two I had on the subject.

[Baba Louie]

http://www.wpxi.com/ap/ap/crime/detr...ccident/nPpqJ/

"There was some manipulation along the officer's waistline (that) he did not control," Godbee told reporters.

Maybe a better made holster of horsehide as opposed to soft leather? And never let anyone near your weapon, party or not.

[Nanuk]

I have been carrying a gun concealed for over 30 years and never had a shot go off from being hugged.

[Chettt]

Could it not have just been shaken loose from the holster a bit while dancing and the trigger snagged on the officer's clothing or holster? I don't find this too hard to imagine when people shoot themselves in the leg while holstering their pistol.

I feel bad for all families involved.

[pax]

I can see that as a possibility for explaining how the gun went off. I'm still very skeptical about the idea that a gun in the IWB holster of a standing person could go off and injure the person standing next to him in the chest.

Agreed. I can't visualize that, either.

One way I can visualize this happening would be something like this:

1. Cop dancing with wife, with his back to the other woman.
   
2. Other woman comes up behind him, hugs or pats his waistband (saw the gun first, maybe? deliberately reaching for the gun? How weird is it to hug the guy while he's dancing with his wife...?)
   
3. Woman's action, deliberate or otherwise, pulls the gun at least partly out of the holster.
   
4. Cop spins around, fast, to prevent unauthorized access to his firearm.
   
5. Cop's spin changes the muzzle direction, or causes woman to fumble the gun, or some variant of the two.
   
6. Woman's hand clenches on the trigger, either tightening her grip or grabbing for the gun as it falls.

End of story.

I can't visualize any way for her to get shot in the chest that does not begin with the gun outside the officer's holster.

pax

[Double Naught Spy]

When is a hug not simple? If someone is poking me with their fingers and grabbing things and groping me - it's not a hug anymore.

Even if grabbing and groping, it would be described as during a hug by witnesses. A lot can go on during hugs. They certainly are not all simple.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcigk7k7h9U
http://www.h2g2.com/approved_entry/A603668

Of course, hugs can involve all sorts of patting and rubbing, probably what you would call groping even though if it was by you on your grandmother, you might not.

And as noted previously, she was dancing with the officer at the time. Hugs are part of all sorts of dances and hugging while dancing certainly adds complexity.

No, not all hugs are "simple" as you describe.

And are there IWB holsters that have the muzzle pointing both back and up?

Really? Cool. Which models exactly. Are they for drawing the gun through the fly? That would be deep concealment wouldn't it? So of the models that are like this, which ones are like the one described for the officer?

Just not adding up? Or typically poor journalism?

It may not add up, but it certainly may not be poor journalism or some sort of leftist writing. Keep in mind that journalists often state the particulars of a case as told to them by the cops. I have seen where journalists report a bolt rifle as an assault rifle, but it as specifically as the cops stated. No, most journalists probably don't know squat about guns, but they expect the "expert" cops to know what they are talking about.

Both Sgt. Eren Stephens and the Chief gave statements as to the circumstances, so the information sounds like it comes from the department, so the fact that the information we want isn't there isn't surprising and may in fact be part of the ongoing investigation. At this point, that may be all that the cops know or are willing to share about the event. When you read about other such tragedies, it isn't as if you get the full explanation down to the most tiny details.

[harrys ghost]

Article with a little more information: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/D...ug-3693451.php

Apparently, the gun is question was a S&W M&P.

[youngunz4life]

honestly, stranger things have happened. RIP

[firespec35]

As said before Detroit PD is issued the S&W M&P 40 fs with no external safety. I think they have a heavier trigger though. I know for sure the m&p 40c that they can purchase for off duty carry must be speced with a heavier trigger but not exactly sure about their dept issued duty gun. It was in a neoprene iwb holster something like a blackhawk.
Now I carry a m&p 45c in a blackhawk #6 (I get one with every gun I buy so I can carry till I decide what real holster I want) My gun is pretty close in size to a fs 40 and when I wear my gun most of the trigger guard is covered by my belt. This isn't passing the smell test

[9mm]

oo

nvm it was merged

"Why do you need a gun at your own house? Why do you need a gun at your own party?" McNair asked. She said she would be watching the police investigation closely.

Because thugs could come and rob you?

But Godbee said Parrish's waist holster was made of a soft material, and it would be possible for the trigger to be pulled while the gun was in it. He said the barrel direction typically would have been pointing down while holstered.

[Glockstar .40]

i didnt read the article so im just goin off a couple threads. he was off duty he could have been wearing a holster shirt. those dont have trigger guards! at least the 5.11 doesnt......just a thought

[Glockstar .40]

nevermind it was a IWB...my bad

[verdun59]

Sounds bogus, some info is being withheld Don't know if we will ever get all the details. Do I hear the faint cry for more gun control........

[Kreyzhorse]

There is certainly more to this story than has been made public. I don't believe the gun was holstered when it went off nor does it make sense that the bullet hit her in the lung and heart if it was holstered.

While this might have been an accident, I believe a ND was to blame.

[cerberus65]

My bet is that the cop was the one who inadvertently pulled the trigger trying to regain control of his weapon that was unexpectedly removed from his control by the "hugger". I hope I'm wrong, though.

[9mm]

My bet is that the cop was the one who inadvertently pulled the trigger trying to regain control of his weapon that was unexpectedly removed from his control by the "hugger". I hope I'm wrong, though.

Hmm, could have been. *HUGS*, What are you doing? turns and grab to stop her from touching him, and she falls down, while falling his gun trigger is pulled by mistake some how by him protecting his gun(grab?), due to soft material holster..?


Just a thought.

[Nathan]

His gun, which was in a waist holster, went off, and the bullet punctured Miller's lung and hit her heart. She died at a hospital.

Godbee said the gun was in a waist holster made of soft material, which would have allowed the trigger to be activated.

Hmmm. It is not necessarily an IWB.


So much for all these new fangled safe action guns!

It would be nice to get some real facts about how this happened. Obviously the action design had something to do with it. An XD might not have been held properly to fire. A 1911 would have required one more step and a good grip to fire. A revolver would have required about twice the force to fire.

More important, I think we should all reevaluate our use of things named safe packer, holster shirt, packing in a crown royal bag, etc. All guns should be stored in a double or triple safe way. That is 2 -3 deliberate movements to fire. i.e. (XD)
1) Get a firm grip
2) draw from trigger protected holster
3) pull trigger

DETROIT (AP) — The mother of a Detroit woman shot and killed while dancing with an off-duty police officer questioned Monday why he would carry a loaded gun at a party in his own backyard.

She must not be from Detroit! Doesn't it have an incredibly high murrder rate? Oh yes, it does.

Police said Adaisha Miller was dancing with the officer early Sunday morning when she hugged him from behind. His gun, which was in a waist holster, went off, and the bullet punctured Miller's lung and hit her heart. She died at a hospital.

We are really going to need to understand what this holster is. . .

Detroit Police Chief Ralph Godbee described Miller's death during a Monday news conference as a tragic, "unfathomable" accident.

"Somehow, in the course of dancing with the individual to his rear and touching his waist, his Detroit Police Department-issued weapon discharged, striking Ms. Miller," Godbee said. "There is absolutely no indication that the officer placed his hand on his weapon at all."

Godbee implied contact from Miller appeared to have caused the gun to go off, but he stopped short of saying she pulled the trigger on the .40-caliber handgun.

He might want to start pointing the finger at someone because it is pointed directly at the department policies and training which would allow an offficer to CCW an action type like that in an unsuitable holster. This can be expanded on, but is not needed here.

The officer, 38-year-old Isaac Parrish, has been placed on desk duty while the case is investigated. There was no answer at his home early Monday afternoon. Godbee said Parrish is "very remorseful."

Probably reasonable as he seems to have either made a poor decision about how to CCW that gun or lacked effective training to help him make the right choice.

Miller was celebrating the weekend before her 25th birthday on Monday, said her mother, Yolanda McNair. She was invited to the Saturday night fish fry at Parrish's home by friends who knew him, McNair said.

"Why do you need a gun at your own house? Why do you need a gun at your own party?" she asked. McNair said she would be watching the police investigation closely.

Does she live in Detroit. In a place with a murder rate that high, I ask. . .where was her gun at! Does she realize that sometimes people get arrested and it isn't all smiles. Sometimes people don't like getting arrested and are willing to devote some serious resources to telling the officer they didn't like it.

Detroit police officers have the option of carrying their weapons while off-duty. The model issued by the department has a safety mechanism built into the trigger.

I would like to formally request we call "safety" devices which do not require a distinctly seperate action something else like passive action locks. . .

The Smith & Wesson M&P primarily was designed for police and military use. It does not have a safety switch, but the trigger has to be pulled back completely for the gun to fire, certified firearms instructor Rick Ector said.

Let me translate. Idiots like you and I aren't smart enough to handle rhese special safetyless guns like police and military. We might treat them with respect and carry in a kydex or leather rig which covers the trigger completely.

Ector said that if properly holstered, the gun cannot be fired accidentally.

He ought to launch rockets for a living!

David Balash, a former Michigan State Police firearms examiner, said the investigation also should look at the gun's angle given that Miller was shot in the chest.

"What's going to be very important here is the angle of the entry of the wound to the victim (and) if there is in fact any gunpowder residue," Balash said. "I'm having a great deal of difficulty understanding how a weapon that's pointed at the ground can be turned literally 110 degrees minimum to be in an upward position to strike someone."

Wow someone worth quoting. I knew it was in here somewhere.

But Godbee said Parrish's waist holster was made of a soft, neoprene-type material, and it would be possible for the trigger to be pulled while the gun was in it. He also said the barrel direction typically would have been pointing down while holstered.

Here we are real data.
Is it this? link
link
link

There still is "no justification" for her daughter's death, said McNair, 44.

"She didn't do anything wrong," McNair said. "She told us she was going to a party.

"I should have been baking my daughter her birthday cake."

The Wayne County medical examiner's office was to perform an autopsy.

Not sure reasonable people can agree this. Sounds like her friendly dancing, tackle, attack may have pulled the trigger.

I hope things work out ok and we all learn from it.

[Luger_carbine]

The story doesn't make sense, hopefully the investigation will cut through the BS. I think anyone who knows anything about guns knows that the story is implausible.

So much for all these new fangled safe action guns!

My evaluation of whether a gun is safe or not does not include the "If I get hugged from behind will the hugger catch a bullet" test.

[motorhead0922]

The only things I can think of is a ricochet off the floor (very unlikely) or she slipped and fell.

[JohnKSa]

It is not necessarily an IWB.

It is according to the article in the link I provided in my earlier post.

This article also states that the gun was a "department-issued, 40-caliber Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistol, was in a holster worn inside the officer’s waistband ".