Picking up a magazine on a hot range.

Murdock · October 14, 2010, 09:02 PM

Educate me. Why do some people make an issue of a shooter squatting to pick up a spent magazine at his feet when shooting on line in a class? Especially if the class is being run as a hot range?

If the shooter's weapon is holstered, or the muzzle is controlled and pointed downrange, and he or she is not going forward of the line, what's the concern?

Osageshooter · October 14, 2010, 09:10 PM

There is at your feet. Then there is just a little ahead of your feet. Then there is just a little bit more ahead of your feet. Then there is three feet ahead of your feet. It is a high reliability concept. If you don't allow it at all, you won't have the guy walking out and picking up the magazine that hit his knee on the way down and bounce out in front of the line.

**Frank Ettin** · October 14, 2010, 09:29 PM

If the drill is running, your gun may be holstered, but the guys on your left and the guys on your right have their guns out and are firing them. During a drill we want no extraneous movement on the line, for the reasons Osageshooter mentioned, and because unexpected things can happen, like a loss of balance. It's better to be safe in class.

They'll be a time after the drill is over and everyone has holstered when everyone can pick up magazines. Yours will still be there. It won't be going any place.

demigod · October 15, 2010, 08:41 AM

No instructor I've trained under has ever made this an issue.

**Frank Ettin** · October 15, 2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demigod

No instructor I've trained under has ever made this an issue.

Funny, every instructor I've ever trained with has not wanted anyone to pick up magazines while on line during the time the drill is running. Magazines would get picked up only after the drill finished and everyone was holstered.

thesheepdog · October 15, 2010, 09:40 AM

My opinion:

Mark your mags so you can identify them and collect them after the drill.

Don't stoop down to pick up mags until the range is no longer hot.

pax · October 15, 2010, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Educate me. Why do some people make an issue of a shooter squatting to pick up a spent magazine at his feet when shooting on line in a class? Especially if the class is being run as a hot range?

It's a lot easier to demo in person than to type out, but consider this: In a class, you're often standing only a couple of feet away from the guys on either side of you. And those guys might be shooting, holding their guns at low ready, reloading, or some variant of any of the above. When you bend down to pick up your magazine, if either of the guys on either side of you has his firearm pointed anywhere but directly on target, there's a very high chance that you'll place your noggin right in front of one of those close muzzles, either on your way down or on your way back up, without even realizing you've done so.

And that's quite apart from the fact that a surprising number of people (especially including old guys who've "been shooting longer than you've been alive") don't seem to have any inbuilt muzzle awareness, and swing their !$#%!#$ muzzles around to point at the guys next to them, their own kneecaps, AND the instructor behind them as they frantically dive for the magazine as if it might vanish into a hitherto-unnoticed black hole if they don't grab it before it strikes the ground.

Gravity works, most of the time, and it can be trusted to hold your magazine in place right where it landed until the instructor calls the line safe.

pax

Archer-1911 · October 15, 2010, 10:52 AM

Let me answer that by asking you this why in the hell do you need to pick your magazine up right away? The instructor will give the entire class a period of time to collect/load magazines so why not just wait?

Tom-C · October 15, 2010, 11:38 AM

Demigod,

I agree with Fiddletown and Osageshooter. Every Instructor I have worked with insists on no one retriving magazines until the range is safe and all the firearms are holstered.

Capt. Charlie · October 15, 2010, 12:05 PM

If that hot range involved a defensive course, there's another reason not to pick up a mag.

Remember the Newhall Incident? Trooper James Pence, only 2 years out of the academy, attempted to pocket his revolver's empty brass during a reload attempt.

It seems that, during his time at the academy, CHP didn't want empty brass cluttering up their nice manicured lawn at the range, and had rookies pocket their empties. It got him killed at Newhall.

Habits folks... habits.

Semi autos and magazines, slightly different, but the same principle.

We were specifically discouraged from picking up mags primarily for that reason.

R1145 · October 15, 2010, 12:52 PM

It's a training thing. Train as you fight.

geetarman · October 15, 2010, 01:09 PM

Capt. Charlie,

Thanks for the added response. It makes a lot of sense.

Geetarman

raimius · October 15, 2010, 06:52 PM

Let's say you have a nicely marked firing line. Now, person A knows not to cross the line on a hot range. He picks up his mag, which just behind the line. Person B does much the same, but doesn't pay quite as much attention to where the firing line is...now we have range violations.

demigod · October 18, 2010, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Demigod,

I agree with Fiddletown and Osageshooter. Every Instructor I have worked with insists on no one retriving magazines until the range is safe and all the firearms are holstered.

Gotcha! I misunderstood the question a little. I didn't get the part about the drill still running... i.e. bullets still flying. We always get permission to police up mags, etc. at the end of the drill.

booker_t · October 19, 2010, 10:00 AM

Good comments by all.

The concern I would have mostly is what is the person doing with the muzzle while he/she is leaning/squatting/kneeling to pick up the mag, even if it is right at their feet. It's a moment when the mind is concerned with something other than muzzle discipline, and in such close quarters, any slip could be fatal.

Also, the train as you fight concept applies 100%. Drop your empties and get them out of the way. If you drop a mag with some rounds left, it's gone, let it go. Get the next mag in the gun and make 'em count. If you're doing a tactical reload and you drop the partial, let it go and move on, it's gone. Stay in the moment and worry about After-Action Review when the time is right.

For marking mags: Get yourself a good oil-based paint marker in your favorite color (I like green). Hobby stores like AC Moore or Michael's carry them, a couple bucks each and they last quite a while. Put a dot or your first initial on there somewhere and there will be no confusion about which ones are your's.

Rifleman 173 · October 19, 2010, 10:12 AM

If you train to waste extra moves, like picking up a magazine while shooting is on-going, it means that you are not concentrating on what is important like watching the enemy. A magazine should be secondary to your life and your life depends on you watching what is going on in front of you. Drop the magazine, move on and watch what is going on around you is important in that order. If you aren't shooting, you should be watching and moving or reloading while behind cover.

So why do we push watching the range over magazine recovery? Because (A.) is becomes a tactical strength for you to go straight through the course of fire and (B.) because it can be a safety issue that saves your life. Suppose the shooter suddenly slumps over with a heart attack or takes a richocet in the head. If you are alert and concentrating on the gunfire then when the shooter drops over you might be able to keep him from shooting another person by accident or even you. So there are basically two cautious reasons to wait and pick up magazines at the end of a course of fire.

October 14, 2010, 09:02 PM	#1
Murdock Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2008 Location: Down East Maine Posts: 431	Picking up a magazine on a hot range. Educate me. Why do some people make an issue of a shooter squatting to pick up a spent magazine at his feet when shooting on line in a class? Especially if the class is being run as a hot range? If the shooter's weapon is holstered, or the muzzle is controlled and pointed downrange, and he or she is not going forward of the line, what's the concern? __________________ The United States Marine Corps: Providing the enemies of America the opportunity to die for their countries since 1775. Semper fi.

October 15, 2010, 09:40 AM	#6
thesheepdog Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2010 Location: DFW Texas Posts: 1,996	My opinion: Mark your mags so you can identify them and collect them after the drill. Don't stoop down to pick up mags until the range is no longer hot. __________________ Krav Maga/Judo Qualified Rifleman/Marksmanship Instructor/Lic. Medic "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" Romans 8:1

October 15, 2010, 12:05 PM	#10
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	If that hot range involved a defensive course, there's another reason not to pick up a mag. Remember the Newhall Incident? Trooper James Pence, only 2 years out of the academy, attempted to pocket his revolver's empty brass during a reload attempt. It seems that, during his time at the academy, CHP didn't want empty brass cluttering up their nice manicured lawn at the range, and had rookies pocket their empties. It got him killed at Newhall. Habits folks... habits. Semi autos and magazines, slightly different, but the same principle. We were specifically discouraged from picking up mags primarily for that reason. __________________ TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does *your* post make *you?* I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie

October 15, 2010, 12:52 PM	#11
R1145 Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 351	+1 to Capt. Charlie It's a training thing. Train as you fight.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

October 14, 2010, 09:10 PM	#2
Osageshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2009 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 179	There is at your feet. Then there is just a little ahead of your feet. Then there is just a little bit more ahead of your feet. Then there is three feet ahead of your feet. It is a high reliability concept. If you don't allow it at all, you won't have the guy walking out and picking up the magazine that hit his knee on the way down and bounce out in front of the line.

October 14, 2010, 09:29 PM	#3
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	If the drill is running, your gun may be holstered, but the guys on your left and the guys on your right have their guns out and are firing them. During a drill we want no extraneous movement on the line, for the reasons Osageshooter mentioned, and because unexpected things can happen, like a loss of balance. It's better to be safe in class. They'll be a time after the drill is over and everyone has holstered when everyone can pick up magazines. Yours will still be there. It won't be going any place.

October 15, 2010, 08:41 AM	#4
demigod Junior member Join Date: March 13, 2008 Location: AZ Posts: 1,129	No instructor I've trained under has ever made this an issue.

October 15, 2010, 10:52 AM	#8
Archer-1911 Member Join Date: October 13, 2010 Posts: 27	Let me answer that by asking you this why in the hell do you need to pick your magazine up right away? The instructor will give the entire class a period of time to collect/load magazines so why not just wait?

October 15, 2010, 11:38 AM	#9
Tom-C Member Join Date: July 25, 2008 Posts: 45	Demigod, I agree with Fiddletown and Osageshooter. Every Instructor I have worked with insists on no one retriving magazines until the range is safe and all the firearms are holstered.

October 15, 2010, 01:09 PM	#12
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	Capt. Charlie, Thanks for the added response. It makes a lot of sense. Geetarman

October 15, 2010, 06:52 PM	#13
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Let's say you have a nicely marked firing line. Now, person A knows not to cross the line on a hot range. He picks up his mag, which just behind the line. Person B does much the same, but doesn't pay quite as much attention to where the firing line is...now we have range violations.

October 19, 2010, 10:00 AM	#15
booker_t Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2009 Posts: 797	Good comments by all. The concern I would have mostly is what is the person doing with the muzzle while he/she is leaning/squatting/kneeling to pick up the mag, even if it is right at their feet. It's a moment when the mind is concerned with something other than muzzle discipline, and in such close quarters, any slip could be fatal. Also, the train as you fight concept applies 100%. Drop your empties and get them out of the way. If you drop a mag with some rounds left, it's gone, let it go. Get the next mag in the gun and make 'em count. If you're doing a tactical reload and you drop the partial, let it go and move on, it's gone. Stay in the moment and worry about After-Action Review when the time is right. For marking mags: Get yourself a good oil-based paint marker in your favorite color (I like green). Hobby stores like AC Moore or Michael's carry them, a couple bucks each and they last quite a while. Put a dot or your first initial on there somewhere and there will be no confusion about which ones are your's.

October 19, 2010, 10:12 AM	#16
Rifleman 173 Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 589	If you train to waste extra moves, like picking up a magazine while shooting is on-going, it means that you are not concentrating on what is important like watching the enemy. A magazine should be secondary to your life and your life depends on you watching what is going on in front of you. Drop the magazine, move on and watch what is going on around you is important *in that order.* If you aren't shooting, you should be watching and moving or reloading while behind cover. So why do we push watching the range over magazine recovery? Because (A.) is becomes a tactical strength for you to go straight through the course of fire and (B.) because it can be a safety issue that saves your life. Suppose the shooter suddenly slumps over with a heart attack or takes a richocet in the head. If you are alert and concentrating on the gunfire then when the shooter drops over you might be able to keep him from shooting another person by accident or even you. So there are basically two cautious reasons to wait and pick up magazines at the end of a course of fire.