Who makes the best FL rifle die set?

[mrawesome22]

From reviews on Midway I'm starting to lean toward Hornady. What do you guys think?

[Buckythebrewer]

Ive got to give it to the VERY INEXPENSIVE Lee pacesetter because ive had it for years and I use it in my ar15 and shoot well at 600+yards with it.. Seriously I don't think there is one best die.I think it will depend on tolerances in your chamber and dies and other variables.You could not possibly buy a Die for your rifle and know its the best because your rifle might do better with different type of Die than the one you purchased..Until you know exactly what you are loading for(hunting,competition,long range,etc,etc),I think it is a waste to buy an expensive die for a specific purpose that might not even benefit you or even make reloading harder for you.Until your sure go with LEE pacesetter full length die set.JMO

[hpg]

the best in my opinion is RCBS.

[Donaldo]

+1 to the lee dies. It's all I own and have never had a problem.

RCBS are supposed to be good, as well as redding, but you're gonna pay more. I can't say yay or nay on these as I've never used them.

[mrawesome22]

Thanks guys but I went with the Hornady's. The bullet guide sleeve just seemed like a good idea. I almost have everything I need now. Just gotta get a scale and trimmer and I'll be ready to jump into this. Thanks.

[Ammo Junky]

If I had to start all over I would always buy redding dies with carbide expanders. Between hornaday and rcbs it depends on the cal. For .223 id go horanday. for 30-30 or 30-06 Id go rcbs. Hornaday makes great handgun dies, I love their seated die, but I like the rcbs expander more. If possible I always buy redding competition rifle dies. Dont try them if your not gona stick with them, youll never be happy with any of the other agian and there is no reason to toruture your self.

[Dave R]

I have dies by Lee, RCBS and Redding. I like Redding best.

For one thing, they include the shell holder, which saves any difference in cost, right there.

For another thing, they include spare decapping pins. Nice touch.

Their dies adjust EASILY with your fingers. Very elegant design.

Finally, the case includes a nice space for the shell holder, spare pin, etc.

The whole setup is just very nice to use.

[amamnn]

"BEST" will depend upon what you want to spend and for what degree of accuracy you are loading. If you want a good die to load hunting rounds for a factory rifle, you don't need to spend more than what Lee gets for their dies. In fact, I'd consider any other dies for that application a waste of the extra money.
If you're getting into Long distance accuracy, then the same thing can be said about Forster benchrest dies. Nobody told me about them before I went through the Hornady, Redding, RCBS, and Lee FL dies and was not happy with the results. To be fair, all those dies did an adequate job for shooting at less than 200 yards, and the Redding dies work almost as well as the Forster, they just cost 30% more.

[Buckythebrewer]

And again,,What won't work for one person and his rifle another might use that Die with great results..Like I said there are so many variables in loading that you can't say for sure what will improve accuracy you just have to try and make the best guess at what WILL be the best DIE for your rifle and loading configuration..I don't use competition dies but my ar15 with my handloads will shoot 5 shot groups under 6inches @ 625 yards(one 5 shot group near 3 inches).I have even found when I get fussy I have many times gotten poor results with my handloads(weighing brass,sorting brass,weighing each charge,etc etc).I also measure my charges by volume with a CHEAP Lee perfect powder measure as well ..So sometimes you can spend more to get less.SO BEWARE and do your homework. That being said I am intrested in some of the competition dies that I have read about

[amamnn]

Bucky, I have to agree that some of the best non-competition groups I ever shot from a .223 autoloader were all made with Lee equipment from start to finish.
I'm using Forster benchrest dies for the competition loads now, as I said they work great for me and they're not as expensive as some others. I had some concentricty problems with a different rifle that I thought I would be able to clear up using first the RCBS competition, then the Redding bushing type die. The Redding helped a little but I was not really impressed. The Forster uses a different expander/neck sizer relationship and it fixed my problem. Apparently a lot of 6mmppc and .234wssm users are fixing that problem with the same die.
The Redding bushing dies are great if you need to size your neck much differently from the SAMMI specs, and they do give you a more consistently concentric neck than the Lees or Hornadys ever will.
I love a lot of my RCBS eqipment, just not the dies.

[squirrelsniper]

If you don't mind spending some cash, Forster is about the best you'll get.
If you want a more moderate cost, Lee dies will do as good a job as anything else in the low to moderate price range.

FWIW, I own more Lee dies than any other brand.

[temmi]

For a FL seizing die RCBS is as good as any… Forster sizing die is marginally better ( I have both) but the Forster Bench rest Seating Die is number 1, and well worth the price.

[Buckythebrewer]

Yes ,that forster benchrest die has caught my eye a few times .I am now using a lee collet neck sizing die(from time to time) very carefully(using a comparitor mic and bumping the shoulder with full length die when needed) with my ar15 and had great results(unsafe if shoulder displacement is not measured and corrected )..My results at 625 yrds were done with little effort so I won't mess with changing dies until I have tried all the little things that don't cost anything to change ..Maybe I can start to hit consistent 1/2 M.O.A. if im lucky.

[918v]

FL sets are for suckas.

Get a Redding body die, a Lee collet neck die, a K&M expander mandrel w/die, and a Redding competition seater.

[mrawesome22]

Hey guys. Is it normal to have a LOT of resistance when bringing the sized brass back through the expander ball or should I be using mica to make it easier? Also, I'm using nickel brass. Is plain brass easier to expand?

[temmi]

mrawesome22

Try lubbing the inside of the neck... I use a RCBS lube and a Q-tip. I don't get much resistance. Remember to remove the Lube by tumbling or a liquid cleaner.

[amamnn]

The benchrest shooters of the world would be surprised to see 918's opinion of FL dies. The Forster benchrests with the new expander/neck relation is giving us all super concentricity, as long as proper lubing of the neck inside and out is done. For this I prefer to use fine ground mica as it does not contaminate powder and thus require an additional cleaning step.

[BigJakeJ1s]

Please pardon my ignorance in this, but what is the difference between the Forster Benchrest FL sizer, and the RCBS Competition FL sizer? They both have the raised expander ball, but does the RCBS competition die not raise it as far or far enough?

If you deprime separately with a universal depriming die (i.e. prior to tumbling, etc.), can you raise the expander ball on most FL dies to accomplish the same thing?

Maybe this would help a little extra if you already found a FL die that your rifle really likes?

Just curious...

Andy

[918v]

The benchrest shooters of the world would be surprised to see 918's opinion of FL dies

No they wouldn't.

Benchresters use body dies and neck dies exclusively. They don't FL size using conventional dies.

[270Win]

Another vote here for Lee... had great success so far with their dies, AND their customer service (had a stuck case).

[amamnn]

918 you continue to be a font of misinformation, half truths, and just plain C--P Try going to a bench rest competition some day and look at what goes on between rounds.You won't see very many if any experienced shooters usinh anything but FL dies. Or try reading the posts on this very subject by experienced and nationally ranked shooters on benchrest central, or maybe read an issue of precision shooting.

[amamnn]

one thread of many over the years on the subject--always the same results
http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33628
you can find more on other precision shooting forums and in publications devoted to match shooting all saying the same thing---as do the majority of competition shooters I know--of course it might be a good thing if they really did start using neck dies-- my aggs would look a lot better then

[Kelly J]

This is my personal opinion, and it and a dollar, will get you a cup of coffee, but as a retired Toolmaker I prefer the Hornady line of Dies especially the Rifle Dies, I like the design over others, there are others that work and for some quite well, and I will not put them down, I guess the one thing that you could say is the cost can dictate the brand purchased, and that is just fine, I'm on a fixed Income so I can appreciate that fact very much.

Hope you get the ones you want and I hope they give you the service you expect out of them.

[918v]

Amamnn,

Why don't you actually go to a match.

I can tell you for a fact that FL sizing a factory chamber fired case results in a lot of runout. Body sizing followed by neck sizing in a collet die results in very minimal runout. The difference is .003" vs .0005"

If you don't believe me, size 100 case your way. Then size 100 my way.

[amamnn]

Let's end this proliferation of misinformation and opinion that is not based on fact, and indeed flys in the face of fact and logic. To begin with a "body" die IS a full length sizing die. It just has the expander and decapper uninstalled. It was developed to help correct problems associated with continued use of neck only sizing dies. It sizes the body of the case while leaving the neck alone. It does NOT render the neck concentric with the body. It does NOT set neck tension. Back in the ancient days, it was and indeed still is axiomatic that if your neck die is not making a case that comes out with the neck acceptably concentric to the case body, you run the case through your FL die. Some marketing genius came up with the body die to compliment everyone's neck dies, as in those days it was the fashion to fire form and keep neck sizing. The theory was that your case would headspace on the shoulder (as customary in bottleneck cases) more firmly and accurately.
Then someone decided to start loading his ammunition on site between rounds in order to reduce the effects of rebound, sometimes called spring back, of the brass when sized. Contrary to what amateurs and casual reloaders may believe, brass does not just take on the form you give it either in the chamber or in the die. Brass will tend to return a bit to the shape it was in before it was changed. Think of it as momentum. The change is not great in the first hours or perhaps even days, but over a longer period of time the case can shrink back as much as .0015" at the shoulder. I've seen claims that the brass can shrink as much as .003" and not stop shrinking for up to 2 months after sizing. I can only vouch for the .0015" change in 6mm ppc cases I had run up over the six weeks I was laid up following a surgery. The upshot of the whole loading at the match thing was to deal with this proven phenomenon. It then became obvious to people that using a neck die and then maybe your FL die an/or body die was a time consuming and needless step, as with proper setup and neck lubing, the FL dies could do everything (leaving the shoulder as it was) in one step and faster and only one sizing die needed to be taken along. BTW, there was a lot of ballyhoo about loading at the site in order to compensate for weather conditions, but that was not the reason. Few if any serious match shooters believe that or assert it. These guys' worst nightmare is being called to the line and not being done loading; they waste no steps.
The neck die is a good invention and a useful tool for the majority of casual reloaders who load for hunting and plinking. It will certainly help accuracy in most loads made for those applications which are to be shot in out of the box factory rifles. It is something of a shortcut tool for those who do not know, nor want to know their rifles' chamber dimensions. It's also cheaper than buying all the tools needed to check your chamber and cases, in order to properly set up your FL die to leave the shoulder alone. However, in extreme accuracy shooting, benchrest, long range varmint, silhouette, and other match applications, the neck die has been proven to be of limited efficacy, and in fact has reached the point of diminishing returns in modern benchrest and other match rifles. The current controversy is not whether to use a neck die or a FL die, but which FL die to use and/or whether to have one custom built from your reamer. One problem with neck dies is their lack of control over neck/case concentricity.
It takes two points to define concentricity. In other words, one thing needs another with which to BE concentric. If you size with a neck die, you only have one reference, the neck. The rest of the die is purposely made so as not to touch the body of the die. This gets us back to the rebound we discussed above. When the brass shrinks back after firing it may or may not do so in a manner that renders the neck concentric with the body of the case. In say, a mini-14 or a Model 70 Winchester, that's not a real problem. The chamber and the barrel are probably not true anyway. In a match rifle it's another story and one that we'll get to later. For now, consider the case as it sits in your neck die. Snug in the neck sizer, loose at the bottom. If the neck has remained concentric all is well and good, maybe. If not, the neck die will not fix the problem, and in fact may be make it worse due to the amount of play in the die bottom section and any play in the ram of an older press, or a cheap or worn shellholder. If you doubt this you can prove it yourself on your own equipment. Set up a neck die and insert a fired case into it by hand; that is, not in a shell holder not using the ram. Wiggle it. Lots of play, right? Do the same thing with your FL die. No play. If there is, you need a new FL die. Another thing to check on your press is the play in the ram and shellholders. Raise the ram nearly to the top and wiggle. It should move not at all. Shellholders should move not at all.
I've lately seen a ridiculous assertion that neck dies produce a case neck that is somehow magically concentric to the case body that they have no control over, and FL dies produce a neck not concentric to the case body they reference and control , but to the die itself. This last said as if that were bad thing. How anyone could believe that close tolerance match dies (or even standard dies, these days) are somehow out of whack between the neck reference and the body reference is akin to the continued belief in a flat earth. Body dies have the same problem in reverse; no neck reference. It may be even worse, as the body die does work the brass again after being fired, pushing as we all should know, the brass toward the neck with no reference but the shoulder for the neck to maintain concentricity. Another misapprehension concerning both neck and FL dies is the effect of the expander. Some people who do not know how to, or take the time to adjust their dies and lube the inside of the necks of their cases complain that the expander pulls the neck out of concentricity. There may have been some truth to that in years past, but today when even Lee has a redesigned and superior expander, and Forster has a raised expander that you can actually adjust, there should never be any excuse for letting your expander drag on the brass to excess. Remember too that the expander plays a part in cleaning and smoothing the neck. This is helpful in controlling the neck tension accurately in order to keep a uniform bearing surface of the bullet in contact with the neck.
There is a growing tendency of match and some varmint shooters using bolt guns to not just seat their bullets near the lands, but to actually run the bullet ogive into the lands with various degrees of force involved, depending upon the shooter, the rifle, and the bullet. In seating this way the shooter has no use for neck dies or body dies, but must rely on a well made FL die that matches his chamber. When this seating is used, the cartridge contacts the rifle in two places and two places only, if the benefits are going to be felt. The bullet is snug in the lands, and the case is snug in the chamber near the head. Neck tension must be controlled and very near absolute concentricity achieved. By their very natures, neck and body dies cannot do this. If a case is allowed to headspace on the shoulder, or the bullet is not surely snug in the lands and start pressure is not controlled. If the neck is not sized or if the body near the shoulder is allowed to expand by itself, definite control of concentricity is lost and the bullet may contact the throat upon loading thereby ruining neck tension and the grip of the neck on the bearing surface of the bullet. You will find match shooters turning the necks of their cases as a matter of course, so tight are the chambers in these rifles.
Yes these tolerances are that close. Yes, it seems like obsession--and it is. In ye olden days of yore when I first began shooting in competitions, we loaded up a box or two on the old Lyman and went shooting. We cleaned out the primer pockets, sized, trimmed, chamfered, and called it good. Well, we sorted brass and bullets too. Then came the neck dies, and you had to keep up to compete. Then the body dies (for the suckas) to fix what the neck dies didn't. 1 neck die + 1 body die = 1 FL die! Now we're back to FL dies. Of course, we didn't have the alloys or the designs of today's FL dies and to get the kind of results we've been discussing is going to require spending a little more for your dies. If you're on the accuracy quest, you count it money well spent.
Some quick references for more information on this and other subjects:
http://www.jarheadtop.com/article_handloading.html
http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/bodydies.html
http://precisionshooting.com/
http://www.benchrest.com/forums/usercp.php
http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/...EFU&type=store