The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 12, 2006, 04:20 PM   #1
castnblast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 2, 2006
Location: Corpus Christi TX
Posts: 1,148
Annealing process

We got into this from my previous thread on brass...Anyway, the subject of annealing (did I spell that right? oh well, this is a forum, not english class...) it was brought up that when brass is annealed, it needed to be cooled instantly instead of allowed to be gradually cooled. Did I get that right?

Question 2. How do you know when the brass reaches the magical temp at which time it is truly annealed?
__________________
VEGETARIAN...old indian word for bad hunter
castnblast is offline  
Old July 12, 2006, 04:29 PM   #2
Ausserordeutlich
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 996
Heat the brass in a dark room to the point that it just begins to glow cherry-color, then tip it over into the water.
Ausserordeutlich is offline  
Old July 12, 2006, 04:40 PM   #3
TimRB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Posts: 1,049
Most online references on brass annealing say to quench in water. However, I remember reading an account from someone who toured an ammo factory, and he said they let the brass air-cool. Go figure.

Tim
TimRB is offline  
Old July 12, 2006, 05:32 PM   #4
Ruger4570
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2005
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 2,136
Basically,, Steel "hardens" when quenched quickly in water or oil. Brass "softens" when quenched quickly in water. If you let brass air cool it gets harder. Both are metals with different properties.
Ruger4570 is offline  
Old July 12, 2006, 07:52 PM   #5
amamnn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2006
Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA
Posts: 1,323
annealing

Really, you don't have to do this in the dark, but you need to be able to see the color of the flame and the change of color in the brass. Don't worry it will be pretty obvious. I just put the torch over a bucket of water and hold the rounds in my fingers perpendicular to the torch while turning them 180˚ and back and forth. A .223 round will let you know when it's done, it gets a little hot and you just drop it in the water. A .30-06 round needs maybe a little closer observation to keep from overheating, but I've never had a problem. If you want, go to a welding supply store and buy a 700˚ "temp-L-stick" you mark the shoulder with this and when it melts you know the shoulder is 700˚ I used one when I first tried annealing, and I still have it in my torch kit. I think it cost 5 dollars way back when.
Depending upon the humidity, you may see a sheen of condensation form on the brass like fog which will then rapidly run down the case toward the head. That's a good indication that things have started and you need to be turning the brass so it does not heat up too much in one spot. I don't get much info from the flame colors, since there will be impurities that you can't get off older brass and that affects the flame color. You like to have the brass clean though, so the flame will not hide the brass from view. Once things get under way, you will see the brass on the neck turn colors. Some people say it turns blue. I think it looks like an oil slick is forming on the neck, which then proceeds to run down the shoulder. When the slick has run down 1/4" to 1/2" from the shoulder, depending upon the size of the case, you are ready to drop the case in the water.
I do my annealing after cleaning, but before decapping for obvious reasons, so I am very careful to shake the water out of the case. Small bore cases trap the water, so you have to be very vigorous with the shaking. After they have cooled and dried you will see a change in the look of the brass that has been treated. If your case looks the same from head to neck, you didn't heat it enough, but if you do it right the change will be obvious.
I just read a thread on another site from some guy who claims to anneal evey other loading--probably got that from some rookie benchrester--superstitious lot, those guys. Old benchresters know better, we anneal ever 4 or 5 loadings and keep a rabbit's foot in the range bag.
__________________
"If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal
amamnn is offline  
Old July 12, 2006, 07:55 PM   #6
amamnn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2006
Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA
Posts: 1,323
I forgot to mention that you position the case in the flame at the neck--it should be obvious, but on the internet, you never know...............
__________________
"If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal
amamnn is offline  
Old July 12, 2006, 09:02 PM   #7
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,575
Yes , spell it out .You only anneal the neck. To anneal the whole case would make a dangerous situation and risk a blown up gun. Annealing is a time and temperature dependent process .Annealing of brass starts at about 450 F. But the simplest way is to put the cases in water with the necks exposed. Use a propane torch to heat to glowing red and immediately tip into the water ....Annealing brass doesn't depend on cooling slow or fast , the annealing takes place at temperature . It's a common myth that it has to be quenched . 'Cartridge brass' is 70% Cu, 30% Zn and is the most ductile of the brasses.....
mete is offline  
Old July 12, 2006, 09:58 PM   #8
Bud Helms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 1999
Location: Middle Georgia, USA
Posts: 13,198
Quote:
Annealing brass doesn't depend on cooling slow or fast , the annealing takes place at temperature . It's a common myth that it has to be quenched .
Okay, an honest question here ... then why "immeditely tip into the water?
Bud Helms is offline  
Old July 12, 2006, 10:12 PM   #9
castnblast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 2, 2006
Location: Corpus Christi TX
Posts: 1,148
Huge thanks amamnn and the rest. This was a process I have not been introduced to in the past. I was going to purchase some bulk brass and ran across this in another thread and thought it was worth looking into. I'll definitely do it. I think I'll recognize the change in color, because I've done some soddering of copper pipe, and I think I have a pretty good grasp on the color change that will take place.

Here's a techy question... Will mapp gas get too hot and damage the brass or will it be o.k.?
__________________
VEGETARIAN...old indian word for bad hunter
castnblast is offline  
Old July 13, 2006, 08:51 AM   #10
dfaugh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 1,715
Quote:
Will mapp gas get too hot and damage the brass or will it be o.k.?
No need for that much heat...regular propane torch (as for soldering pipes) will work just fine.
__________________
"If you Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules"

"No one has the answer, but one thing is true.
You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you.
You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide,
you've got to go in after it, and never be denied.
Time is running out...Let's roll.
Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love.
We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove.
Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth.
Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."
dfaugh is offline  
Old July 13, 2006, 09:15 AM   #11
Nortonics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2004
Location: Murderapolis
Posts: 521
Quote:
Okay, an honest question here ... then why "immeditely tip into the water?
So that the residual heating that's approaching the case head (base) is immediately cooled, because we absolutely want to stop the annealing process as close to the case neck as possible.

As said above, quenching has absolutely nothing to do with the annealing process, aside from stopping it immediately. Quenching does not make brass harder or softer (for the most part) - it's not the characteristic of brass to do so.

Full annealing occurs at 660 degrees (650 is a decent approximation). I say 'full' annealing at that temp - beyond that the brass becomes too soft for firearm cartridge use. Partial annealing occurs as 660 degrees is approached.

Very excellent article on the annealing process as used in competitive rifle bench rest shooting here:

The Art and Science of Annealing - Annealing Basics, Cartridge Metallurgy, and Automated Options

Wouldn't it just be so nice if we could all afford this automated annealing device?!

Movie - Annealing Video with Home-Built Carousel

Heatsinking functionality to keep case head (base) cool, so no water needed. Preheats the cases to 220 degrees so that when the torches come around they shock heat the necks from 220 degrees up to about 650 degrees within just a couple seconds. 1000 cases per hour. And a mere $330! Buy one for everyone on your shopping list...
__________________
Tom.
Nortonics is offline  
Old July 13, 2006, 12:11 PM   #12
amamnn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2006
Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA
Posts: 1,323
no no no

:barf: standing the brass in water will not allow the proper annealing of your cases. That method is long ago proven to not work--it's an attempt to speed up the process that was a dismal failure. I can't say it often or loud enough--IT DOES NOT WORK--no reliable source of info or techniques recomends that method, nor the stand it in sand method.. Tests were made--samples taken--all that--I even tried it myself--IT DID NOT WORK!!!!!!!!
A few years back some guy made a weird holder that looked a lot like a tennis raquet and amn attchment to direct the flame from a propane torch to all the case necks held in it. I'm told you can view the patent drawings. It was a dismal failure too. Guees why? IT DIDN'T WORK.
__________________
"If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal
amamnn is offline  
Old July 13, 2006, 12:52 PM   #13
Ausserordeutlich
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 996
amamnn: I was just passing along info that I picked up from various reloading forums, all of which recommended water quenching. I don't stand my brass in water; I chuck it in a Lee trim shellholder and turn it slowly, using a propane torch for heat. I also don't recommend a "dark" room, just a room dark enough so that you can tell when the brass is just turning "cherry" red. Also was told on other forums that "bright red" indicated that the brass was too hot.

At any rate, I'm curious as to what empirical tests, and with what kind of equipment did you use in determining that standing the brass in water "didn't work?"
Ausserordeutlich is offline  
Old July 13, 2006, 02:49 PM   #14
Nortonics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2004
Location: Murderapolis
Posts: 521
Quote:
standing the brass in water will not allow the proper annealing of your cases. That method is long ago proven to not work--it's an attempt to speed up the process that was a dismal failure. I can't say it often or loud enough--IT DOES NOT WORK--no reliable source of info or techniques recomends that method, nor the stand it in sand method.. Tests were made--samples taken--all that--
Sources please. How's about a referenced article or two from someone recognizable in the industry with the technical details. Personally I never believe vague quotes like this, unless there has been some substantial proof circulating around for some time that most people are aware of, and I ain't never read an annealing article that dictates this method is so fraught with problems and "does not work".
__________________
Tom.
Nortonics is offline  
Old July 13, 2006, 02:55 PM   #15
RERICK
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2005
Posts: 369
Nortonics,
Do you have one of those fancy annealing machines.And does it work well.And do you notice any differance as to justify getting one?I'll admit its a great article.Thanks for posting it.
RERICK is offline  
Old July 13, 2006, 05:35 PM   #16
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2000
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,073
Quote:
I can't say it often or loud enough--IT DOES NOT WORK
I wish I'd read this a year ago. I wasted most of a whole stinking day trying to anneal necks on my lil' .17 centerfire wildcat using the "tray of water" method.

I never could get those necks to glow. I think the water is too big a "heat sink", and will prevent the necks from getting hot enough.

That said, is there any way to anneal the tiny necks on this rounds? Imagine a .357mag pistol brass necked down to .17. That's what I'm working with. Necks are narrow and short. I'm worried if I get the necks to glow, the whole case will be too hot.
__________________
I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).
Dave R is offline  
Old July 13, 2006, 05:57 PM   #17
Bud Helms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 1999
Location: Middle Georgia, USA
Posts: 13,198
Nortronics:
Quote:
So that the residual heating that's approaching the case head (base) is immediately cooled, because we absolutely want to stop the annealing process as close to the case neck as possible.
Very good. Great link. Thank you.
Bud Helms is offline  
Old July 13, 2006, 07:09 PM   #18
L Puckett
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2002
Location: Mid-Tennessee
Posts: 150
Rerick,

Ken Lights machine (BC 1000) is "state of the art" for annealing. It biggest asset is the uniformity to the process, something that all other hand methods can't match.

Justifying a Ken Light machine in my case was simple. I can get double the case life and more uniform neck tension out of my cases. Depending on your initial cost for cases, your mileage may vary.

If you have a lot of friends that shoot LR precision, I will promise you will receive "packages" in the mail or on the porch containing empty cases for annealing.

Basically, the machine is quick, painless and exact.

LP
L Puckett is offline  
Old July 16, 2006, 12:16 PM   #19
farmall
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2004
Location: Beatrice Nebraska
Posts: 613
I dont use a torch at all for annealing. Instead I fire up my lead pot. Fill a small pan with 10w motor oil, dip the case about halfway on oil, then dip in the lead pot until you can feel the case start to warm up. Pull the case out and give it a flick to sling off any lead or oil, then drop it into a bucket of water. Perfectly anneled cases every time!
Andy
farmall is offline  
Old July 18, 2006, 06:20 PM   #20
maggys drawers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2006
Posts: 178
Quote:
standing the brass in water will not allow the proper annealing of your cases. That method is long ago proven to not work--it's an attempt to speed up the process that was a dismal failure. I can't say it often or loud enough--IT DOES NOT WORK--no reliable source of info or techniques recomends that method,
Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading,6th edition, Volume 1, Page 66 uses the pan of water method.
maggys drawers is offline  
Old July 19, 2006, 04:09 PM   #21
alan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 1999
Posts: 3,847
Annealing of brass (cartridge cases) can certainly be done, however this does not answer a particular question.

Assuming that one is dealing with "standard calibers", that is calibers for which cases are readilly available at reasonable prices, is the effort worth while?

I don't shoot rifles much any more, however I did shoot High Power Rifle Competition (National Match Course and Long Range) for quite a few years. I used the 30-06 and 7.62 x 51mm NATO (308 Win) exclusively, loading either fired Match Brass or commercial brass (Winchester) purchased for reloading. Even with full length resizing, case life was quite long. I got in excess of 30 loadings out of a batch of Winchester 30-06 cases, without annealing. Using Match Brass, case life was quite long in bolt guns, and in the one Garand I owned, I got 20 plus firings prior to experiencing occasional HEAD SEPARATIONS, a problem annealing would not address. Never experienced neck splits or cracking with cases fired in my Garand.

If one is into serious case reforming, annealing is or could become another story entirely, however assuming that one is reloading those "standard cases", if it makes the individual happy to anneal case necks, I suppose it is not likely to do serious harm. How much good it will accomplish is another question.
alan is offline  
Old July 19, 2006, 06:13 PM   #22
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
I'm with alan on this. 7.62 & 5.56 cases don't stick around long enough to make the effort worthwhile.

As to the MAPP vs propane question, propane is prolly better (lower temp) but if all you have is MAPP and don't want to spring for a propane torch...just pull the flame back a little for lower temps.
Edward429451 is offline  
Old July 20, 2006, 12:23 AM   #23
El Paso Joe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 4, 2006
Location: Spokane Valley
Posts: 340
A good link

Check this link on annealing -
http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jun96cases.html

Personally, I hold the brass with a pair of electrician's pliers with a curve in the front part of the jaw and when the case is bluish and discolored I drop it in a bowl of water. The pliers are a good enough heat sink that the head is unaffected. The cases are softened enough that they form well (357 to 256) and don't split when fired.

Unannealed cases formed but they took a lot more work, I lost one out of every ten in the forming, and seven of the remaining had their neck split when fired.
El Paso Joe is offline  
Old July 20, 2006, 04:33 PM   #24
amamnn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2006
Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA
Posts: 1,323
annealing

Though the effects of brittle brass affect your cartridges' perfomance(s) some time before the neck splits, certainly there is no law that says you MUST anneal. The benefits are mainly in restoring the malleability of the brass which prolongs the useful life. A sort of by-product is that the neck of the case will then grip the bullet more uniformly, giving you a more predictable bearing surface and more control of start pressures as compared to a case which has become too brittle. Admittedly, this is a tiny detail when taken in the context of all the variables involved with loading a cartridge, but that's what the accuracy quest is all about, attending to ALL the tiny details.
As far as sources go for the fact that standing cases in water to anneal DOES NOT WORK goes, the Hornady reference is one of many. There are some that can be found by doing a casual google for the word "annealing." However, this myth belongs in the same category with the ravings of the flat earthers and is not worth perpetuating by discussing it further.
__________________
"If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal
amamnn is offline  
Old August 3, 2006, 06:53 PM   #25
Jseime
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,775
Woah

Speaking as someone who is new to reloading this is all very confusing and contradictory.

I think what I'm getting from this is that:
#1: Every five or so firings I should anneal
#2: The most common method is to stand the cases in a pie plate with a 1/4 inch of water or so
#3: The old propane torch in the basement will work nicely
#4: This should be done after firing and cleaning but before sizing and trimming
__________________
I love the smell of fresh shotgun in the morning.
Jseime is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12160 seconds with 8 queries