Clays vs Tightgroup

Old Shooter · September 21, 2005, 05:14 AM

I started loading with Bullseye then moved to Tightgroup. At the last IDPA match I was talking to a few shooters who were using Clays. Their reasoning was that they were able to make the powerfactor (165,000 fps) with less powder and therefore less recoil. Any ideas if this sounds correct?

caz223 · September 21, 2005, 05:55 AM

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/general/burnratechart.php
It's based more on burn rate.
The faster the burn rate, the faster the gun comes back down.
Check first that the load is within common sense pressure zones.
If you use good brass in 9mm or .45, and the gun's chamber is tight enough, you have a little 'common sense' area just above SAAMI.
I'm leery to load .40 to SAAMI specs in a tight gun even with slow powder.
Eet skeeres me.

The theory is that with heavy bullets and fast powders, the pressure curve is more steep, and drops faster, too.
Too heavy and too fast is harder on your gun.
I guess I just scare easily.
***EDIT***
I suppose I should add that I believe more in the gun's ergos and how it likes your hand. I've shot guns that are basically identical and using the same ammo, had MUCH more or less 'felt' recoil (Subjective.) than the other clone.
Grips, grip angle, bore axis, hand strength, familiarity, spring tuning, training, etc. make more difference.
There's also something to be said for the slow push of a .45 or the flip,flip of a 10mm.

Old Shooter · September 21, 2005, 06:28 AM

Quote:

It's based more on burn rate.

I agree but the quantity of powder must play a factor. Clays burns faster then Tightgroup and given the same volume I would expect it to deliver less felt recoil.

BTW I'm shooting a 45acp 1911 and my loads are done using Federal 150 primers and 230gr lead round nose bullets with mixed casings.

HSMITH · September 21, 2005, 07:42 AM

Shooter, 3.7-3.8 grains of Clays should make 165 pf with your bullet and is a fantastic load. As soft shooting as 45 acp gets. All my 45 acp USPSA loads are built with Clays and there are LOTS of guys using it. VV powders have some popularity too but Clays seems to be the powder of choice in 45.

LAH · September 21, 2005, 09:54 AM

Hey........Old Shooter which bullet you shooting?

kgpcr · September 21, 2005, 10:14 AM

faster powder = more snap. slower powder = more of a push. i love Titegroup

rnovi · September 21, 2005, 01:18 PM

I've only just purchased my first can of TG but have gone through about three cans of Clays so do take these observations as being relatively new to the powders.

I chrono'ed off some Clays 3.8 loads / 230 lead RN's last night. Pretty consistent velocities between 820 and 847 fps. That load makes power very easily. Recoil is definitely more snappy out of my 625 than compared to a load of Unique.

I also shot a bunch of .38 specs with Clays and TG from my GP100 6". The difference in felt recoil was very noticable. TG was considerably softer shooting. 3.5 gr. TG chrono'ed at 950 fps and (kid you not) felt like I was shooting a .22 LR! Super soft recoil - if it were not for the chrono I would have seriously thought I was shooting at 700 fps!

TG has a much softer recoil than Clays from my minimal experience so far. TG accuracy has been good with groups of 1" at 45 feet in the .38 spec.

Honestly I can't wait to try it in my .45!

HSMITH · September 21, 2005, 04:58 PM

That push sensation is exactly what you don't want in a competition load. The push takes too long to recover from, the snap comes back down a lot faster and on target for the next shot.

230 with regular Clays is FAR softer than any factory hardball load I have ever found.

Old Shooter · September 21, 2005, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Hey........Old Shooter which bullet you shooting?

I have a local bullet maker here who produces a nice piece. I'm buying his 230gr lead round nose 45acp for $30.00/1,000. Can't beat the price or the bullet.

Old Shooter · September 21, 2005, 05:44 PM

rnovi

Apples to Apples, Grain for grain Tightgroup may be softer but to make major it takes me 4.4 grains. If Clays can make major with ~3.6 or .8 then it should be a softer recoil.

I have no reference to Clays but 3.8 grains of Tightgroup only factors in the 150's for me. (factor = speed x bullet weight / 1,000)

rnovi · September 21, 2005, 05:52 PM

Shooter,

What firearm are you using? Revo or Auto? Barrel Length?

Old Shooter · September 21, 2005, 06:20 PM

5" S&W 1911DK modified with a Briley barrel and matching eliptical busihng

We also chronyed the Tightgroup through a 5" stock Para with little difference.

Michaelm45 · September 21, 2005, 09:12 PM

Old Shooter I too have a SW1911DK, Nice Piece.
I'm not a competition shooter, but when posting a powder question HSMITH replyed with that load, 3.7-3.8 grains of Clays W/230RN. And man is he right.
It's an accurate load and keeps your gun clean.
Thanks again HSMITH.

Lycanthrope · September 21, 2005, 10:48 PM

2 of the best powders for .45 ACP. Takes 3.8 of Clays and 4.3 of Titegroup to make around 168-170pf in Kimber 5".

LAH · September 22, 2005, 07:33 AM

Old Shooter................You did good.

Old Shooter · September 22, 2005, 02:54 PM

Thanks guys I think that I'll have to try the Clays - I'll pick some up over the weekend if I can and report back next week with a personal experience!!!!!

joepa · September 22, 2005, 03:23 PM

I use 4.2 grains of Clays with a 230 LRN bullet. Great accuracy with a satisfying pop.

Shoot them thru my Kimber 5" Gold Match and my S & W 625jm.

Old Shooter · September 23, 2005, 07:29 AM

joepa

What factor are you getting with that formula?

knightkrawler00 · September 23, 2005, 02:27 PM

I switched from TG to Clays behind 200gr LSWC's in my 45ACP for IPSC shooting, getting 170pf from 4.1 grains. I haven't shot the TG and the Clays side by side, but the gun seems to feel better with the Clays. The main reason that I switched was just to try something different, but I soon found out that the barrel doesn't lead nearly as bad as TG, there is much less powder residue left on the exterior of the gun, and my casings are no longer carboned up on one side. I like TG and use it for 9mm and 38 special, but I'm sticking with Clays in the 45 for now.

Old Shooter · September 27, 2005, 10:21 AM

As I listed in another thread, I just loaded about a dozen rounds of Clays with 3.6gr under my 230gr LRN. The round made IDPA major at 169K and is a nice soft load.

I'll try a few hundred rounds before committing to the powder but the initial test looks positive.

joecad · December 4, 2005, 03:28 AM

old shooter...thats quite a deal .......1000 for $30.00.....i wish we had such suppliers here.

Ken O · December 4, 2005, 07:39 PM

My Clays loads for making major are: 4.3 w/200 LSWC, and 3.5 230LRN. The SWC is shot from a 1911 and the LRN from a 625.

renaissance7697 · December 6, 2005, 03:18 PM

You say:
" I suppose I should add that I believe more in the gun's ergos and how it likes your hand. I've shot guns that are basically identical and using the same ammo, had MUCH more or less 'felt' recoil (Subjective.) than the other clone"

***********************

Ive been told by my "Smith" ( and had it demonstrated to me with guns that HE had built), that the "perceived recoil" of identical ( parts wise)
1911s .... using identical ammunition, will vary greatly; according to the "fit" of the slide to the frame.
A hand fashioned piece properly fitted by a good Smith, will have substantially less "perceived recoil" than a gun built with the same parts but not "fitted" as well.

My "Smith" is building a custom 1911 [ BACUS Custom ] for me, as we speak.
[ Or at least he will be ...if he ever gets the frame he ordered from Caspian ]

September 21, 2005, 05:14 AM	#1
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	Clays vs Tightgroup I started loading with Bullseye then moved to Tightgroup. At the last IDPA match I was talking to a few shooters who were using Clays. Their reasoning was that they were able to make the powerfactor (165,000 fps) with less powder and therefore less recoil. Any ideas if this sounds correct? __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

September 21, 2005, 05:55 AM	#2
caz223 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,429	http://www.hodgdon.com/data/general/burnratechart.php It's based more on burn rate. The faster the burn rate, the faster the gun comes back down. Check first that the load is within common sense pressure zones. If you use good brass in 9mm or .45, and the gun's chamber is tight enough, you have a little 'common sense' area just above SAAMI. I'm leery to load .40 to SAAMI specs in a tight gun even with slow powder. Eet skeeres me. The theory is that with heavy bullets and fast powders, the pressure curve is more steep, and drops faster, too. Too heavy and too fast is harder on your gun. I guess I just scare easily. *EDIT* I suppose I should add that I believe more in the gun's ergos and how it likes your hand. I've shot guns that are basically identical and using the same ammo, had MUCH more or less 'felt' recoil (Subjective.) than the other clone. Grips, grip angle, bore axis, hand strength, familiarity, spring tuning, training, etc. make more difference. There's also something to be said for the slow push of a .45 or the flip,flip of a 10mm. __________________ I'm not just a gun. I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me.)

September 21, 2005, 10:14 AM	#6
kgpcr Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2005 Posts: 955	faster powder = more snap. slower powder = more of a push. i love Titegroup __________________ Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag Smith M&P 40

September 21, 2005, 01:18 PM	#7
rnovi Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2005 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 401	I've only just purchased my first can of TG but have gone through about three cans of Clays so do take these observations as being relatively new to the powders. I chrono'ed off some Clays 3.8 loads / 230 lead RN's last night. Pretty consistent velocities between 820 and 847 fps. That load makes power very easily. Recoil is definitely more snappy out of my 625 than compared to a load of Unique. I also shot a bunch of .38 specs with Clays and TG from my GP100 6". The difference in felt recoil was very noticable. TG was considerably softer shooting. 3.5 gr. TG chrono'ed at 950 fps and (kid you not) felt like I was shooting a .22 LR! Super soft recoil - if it were not for the chrono I would have seriously thought I was shooting at 700 fps! TG has a much softer recoil than Clays from my minimal experience so far. TG accuracy has been good with groups of 1" at 45 feet in the .38 spec. Honestly I can't wait to try it in my .45! __________________ Robert N. "Remember, Eagles may soar but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!"

September 21, 2005, 05:44 PM	#10
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	rnovi Apples to Apples, Grain for grain Tightgroup may be softer but to make major it takes me 4.4 grains. If Clays can make major with ~3.6 or .8 then it should be a softer recoil. I have no reference to Clays but 3.8 grains of Tightgroup only factors in the 150's for me. (factor = speed x bullet weight / 1,000) __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

September 21, 2005, 07:42 AM	#4
HSMITH Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2002 Posts: 2,019	Shooter, 3.7-3.8 grains of Clays should make 165 pf with your bullet and is a fantastic load. As soft shooting as 45 acp gets. All my 45 acp USPSA loads are built with Clays and there are LOTS of guys using it. VV powders have some popularity too but Clays seems to be the powder of choice in 45.

September 21, 2005, 09:54 AM	#5
LAH Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2002 Location: In The Hardwoods Posts: 1,188	Hey........Old Shooter which bullet you shooting?

September 21, 2005, 04:58 PM	#8
HSMITH Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2002 Posts: 2,019	That push sensation is exactly what you don't want in a competition load. The push takes too long to recover from, the snap comes back down a lot faster and on target for the next shot. 230 with regular Clays is FAR softer than any factory hardball load I have ever found.

September 21, 2005, 05:52 PM	#11
rnovi Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2005 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 401	Shooter, What firearm are you using? Revo or Auto? Barrel Length? __________________ Robert N. "Remember, Eagles may soar but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!"

September 21, 2005, 06:20 PM	#12
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	5" S&W 1911DK modified with a Briley barrel and matching eliptical busihng We also chronyed the Tightgroup through a 5" stock Para with little difference. __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

September 21, 2005, 09:12 PM	#13
Michaelm45 Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2004 Location: NV Posts: 215	Old Shooter I too have a SW1911DK, Nice Piece. I'm not a competition shooter, but when posting a powder question HSMITH replyed with that load, 3.7-3.8 grains of Clays W/230RN. And man is he right. It's an accurate load and keeps your gun clean. Thanks again HSMITH.

September 21, 2005, 10:48 PM	#14
Lycanthrope Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2001 Location: PA Posts: 1,752	2 of the best powders for .45 ACP. Takes 3.8 of Clays and 4.3 of Titegroup to make around 168-170pf in Kimber 5".

September 22, 2005, 07:33 AM	#15
LAH Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2002 Location: In The Hardwoods Posts: 1,188	Old Shooter................You did good.

September 22, 2005, 02:54 PM	#16
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	Thanks guys I think that I'll have to try the Clays - I'll pick some up over the weekend if I can and report back next week with a personal experience!!!!! __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

September 22, 2005, 03:23 PM	#17
joepa Member Join Date: May 11, 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 29	I use 4.2 grains of Clays with a 230 LRN bullet. Great accuracy with a satisfying pop. Shoot them thru my Kimber 5" Gold Match and my S & W 625jm.

September 23, 2005, 07:29 AM	#18
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	joepa What factor are you getting with that formula? __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

September 23, 2005, 02:27 PM	#19
knightkrawler00 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2004 Location: Prosser WA Posts: 103	I switched from TG to Clays behind 200gr LSWC's in my 45ACP for IPSC shooting, getting 170pf from 4.1 grains. I haven't shot the TG and the Clays side by side, but the gun seems to feel better with the Clays. The main reason that I switched was just to try something different, but I soon found out that the barrel doesn't lead nearly as bad as TG, there is much less powder residue left on the exterior of the gun, and my casings are no longer carboned up on one side. I like TG and use it for 9mm and 38 special, but I'm sticking with Clays in the 45 for now.

September 27, 2005, 10:21 AM	#20
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	As I listed in another thread, I just loaded about a dozen rounds of Clays with 3.6gr under my 230gr LRN. The round made IDPA major at 169K and is a nice soft load. I'll try a few hundred rounds before committing to the powder but the initial test looks positive. __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

December 4, 2005, 03:28 AM	#21
joecad Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: nky Posts: 263	thats a deal old shooter...thats quite a deal .......1000 for $30.00.....i wish we had such suppliers here. __________________ I'ld rather die standing than live kneeling

December 4, 2005, 07:39 PM	#22
Ken O Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Half way between Grayling and Cadillac, Michigan Posts: 353	My Clays loads for making major are: 4.3 w/200 LSWC, and 3.5 230LRN. The SWC is shot from a 1911 and the LRN from a 625.

December 6, 2005, 03:18 PM	#23
renaissance7697 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 203	For caz223 re: "perceived recoil" You say: " I suppose I should add that I believe more in the gun's ergos and how it likes your hand. I've shot guns that are basically identical and using the same ammo, had MUCH more or less 'felt' recoil (Subjective.) than the other clone" *********************** Ive been told by my "Smith" ( and had it demonstrated to me with guns that HE had built), that the "perceived recoil" of identical ( parts wise) 1911s .... using identical ammunition, will vary greatly; according to the "fit" of the slide to the frame. A hand fashioned piece properly fitted by a good Smith, will have substantially less "perceived recoil" than a gun built with the same parts but not "fitted" as well. My "Smith" is building a custom 1911 [ BACUS Custom ] for me, as we speak. [ Or at least he will be ...if he ever gets the frame he ordered from Caspian ] __________________ An Armed Society, Is a Polite Society.