Universial or 231

[mjes92]

Pretty much evertything I want to load can be done using either powder.
.380 ACP, 9mm, .38 spl

The question is - Which do you prefer?

I have loaded well over 1K of rounds with Universial and have been happy with it. But I'm looking for something differnt. First planned to try HS-6. Not a pound to be found anywhere in town. Came across a supply of 231 and looked it up in the Speer manual. It covers all my bases but none of my buddies have used it.

Is 231 a Sphereical powder?
Which is a cleaner burning powder? Universal or 231 ???

Thanks for your input.

[David Bachelder]

I used Universal almost exclusively. Since I can no longer find it .... I bought an eight pound jug of HP-38 (same as Win 231).

I've been using the HP-38 a bit, not really enough to be an authority, I find it just as user friendly as Universal.

HP-38, like Universal is a flaked powder and meters very well. Clean? I haven't noticed any excessive residue.

[serf 'rett]

I haven't used Universal so I can't give you a comparision between the two.

I have loaded about 5 pounds of W-231 into 9mm, 40S&W and 45Auto cartridges in the past 2-1/2 years. Nice shooting target loads. For higher velocity loads I tend to use Power Pistol.

W-231 is a ball powder (but looks like flakes due to it being flattened). Flow through my RCBS Uniflow powder measure is very good. Fairly clean burning.

When I first started reloading, I bought a pound of W-231 due to the good things I'd read and heard. Developed some good loads with several bullet types. A few months later, a coworker gave me an old three pound can of W-231 he had bought over 28 years ago. He had used very little from the can. It must be stable stuff because the old W-231 powder loaded and shot just fine.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Win-231 from what I recall is a granular type of powder. And is a bit quicker burning than Universal Clay's. Unique and Universal are similar powders I believe. But I've read most prefer Universal Clay's over Unique because it's cleaner burning and meter's very well as its a flattened ball powder verses Unique's flake. I have used 231 in the past and have found it to be very clean burning and it too meter's very well. As far as which of the two is the cleanest? I wouldn't know. I've never used Universal Clay's in any of my reloading's. Just read about it is all.

[NWPilgrim]

W231 is a very accurate powder for me in everything from .38 Special to .45ACP and light loads in .44 mag. However you will not get top velocities out of it. Great for light to medium loads but not top ones.

It is also one of the most dense powders so it takes up very little case volume.

[noylj]

I prefer 231/HP38. Right now, if you need powder, you buy what you can find.

[mjes92]

Thanks Guy's.
As always you input is apperciated.

[57K]

Winchester coined the term "Ball Powder" and in most cases they are actually flattened sphericals as is W231. Universal is small cut FLAKE powder and is not a spherical or ball type. Really not much of a deal for your handloads because neither powder will be close to 100% load density. Sphericals are denser than flake powders and usually meter better because of it. Universal will have a slight performance edge over W231 and burns a little cleaner, but you'd have to shoot an awful lot of W231 loads for that to be an issue, unless you don't clean your pistols regularly.

IMO, there's a better powder than either if you can find it: www.ramshot.com True Blue. It can be used to load any handgun cartridge. It comes close to being a true ball powder, is very fine and very dense. It meters like hourglass sand with great powder charge uniformity.

[waburn]

In my experience w231 has been cleaner than universal. I have made accurate loads using both. Would rather use w231, down to last pound, and haven't seen any locally since Dec 2012.

[bt380]

For the most part, tradition on the forums seems to hold that win231 and HP38 are the same. But there is always a caveat to tradition. The VMD's between the two are not the same. Many of the manuals show the same grains and velocities. Many is not all. You can find variances in grain and velocity between the to powders in the manuals here an there. So don't assume, research your specific round.

[Nick_C_S]

57K: Do you work for Ramshot?

[Nick_C_S]

I'm a big fan of 231. Been using it for years. And yes, it is the same powder as HP-38. About a month ago, Sportsmen's Warehouse had both in stock (for about 45 minutes, then they sold out). I took a moment to check out the lot numbers on a can of each, and they were identical.

I like 231 a lot. Gets the job done well, basically. It seems to burn very clean, meters well, and is very consistent.

It can pressure spike though. Although it has a little bit of "forgiveness" to it, it's not the powder to go working up to maximum pressure rounds. It'll bite cha. It's for "everyday shooter" type rounds - and does that very well.

[Hammerhead]

At low pressures 231/HP38 is dirty like Unique.
I'll take Universal, but good luck finding it. I would substitute SR-7625, a clean burning flake powder.

[Nick_C_S]

At low pressures 231/HP38 is dirty like Unique.

I guess it can be. It cleans up pretty quickly though, as you move up the charge scale (unlike HS-6 - which is filthy until you're about 3/4 of the way up the load manual scale).

Before I would even consider loading 231 down to the point where it's dirty, I'd just switch my selection to Bullseye.

[57K]

57K: Do you work for Ramshot?

No, but that's not the first time I've been asked. Like most of you guys I started out with the typical powders, a number of them being flake. I started using Vihta Vouri powders in 1991 which began my preference for spherical handgun propellants until they started getting expensive. I also used Vectan spherical powders while they were available in the US and SP2 in paricular. True Blue was my first Ramshot powder and it didn't take long to figure out that it's as "universal" as any powder sold while it meters 3 times better than a flake propellant.

Silhouette is the same powder as the former WAP which Winchester dropped after only a few years on the market, now reloaders have discovered its qualities and it's very close in charge weights and performance to V-V 3N37 which is an impressive powder in cartridges like the 9mm and .40 S&W and I use Silhouette for high performance defense loads in .45 ACP and still get excellent accuracy. Winchester realized their mistake and have since brought out AutoComp to fill the void. It's not the powder that Silhouette/WAP is/was, nor is it treated for low flash. Just the reverse, AutoComp is mainly seeing use by IPSC shooters loading Major 9 because of the high gasses it produces to better work compensators. True Blue is a low flasher naturally and maybe due to its high bulk density. If I could only buy 1 powder it would be True Blue, but my 9mm and .45 ACP defense handloads are charged with Silhouette.

[Nick_C_S]

I was just ribbin' ya. I knew you didn't work for Ramshot - I think I've read a post where you mentioned it proactively.

I like AA powders myself. I believe they and Ramshot are both from Western. So I suppose there's some similarity.

Low flash isn't something I am looking for in a powder because I live in California. If I were to defend myself against a bad guy - even in my own home - I would be automatically guilty if I used a handload. Factory loads only for defense here. California is so . . . never mind. I don't want to get started.

Anyway, I create and load full-power rounds. But they're only for recoil practice and the SHTF scenario. And if SHTF, I'm going to open carry and not care if they're handloads or factory (not that that has anything to do with flash). I was thinking about getting some Silhouette (per your numerous recommendations thereof) and building up some good rounds, but I'm already sitting on about 15lbs of powder, and that's getting to the top of my comfort zone as it is, in terms of safety. Maybe someday.

[57K]

Nick, Western owns both Accurate and Ramshot. The new #5 loadguide gives data for both brands. You can download it from: www.ramshot.com

I use some accurate powders as well, and when it comes to pushing 147 gr. Jacketed bullets to their top velocity potential (Supersonic) in 9mm, few if any are better than AA#7.

AA#5 is another one for the OP to consider, but True Blue is very similar and what I use when I don't load with Silhouette.

[Nick_C_S]

I'm a big fan of AA2. I use it a lot. It's the best metering powder I've ever used (but I never find metering to be an issue - it's talked about a lot here in the forums, but it's a non-issue for me, regardless of the powder).

I am basically moving a lot of former 231 recipes to AA2. I find it a little more forgiving (less prone to pressure spikes), and quite a bit cleaner. It also seems quite a bit less flashy.

One of my go-to recipes for 125g 357 Mag is 8.0g AA2. Good short-barrel, low flash round. 1195 fps through a 3" barrel; and 1212 fps through a 4" barrel (both Smith 686's). I'm very pleased with this round. I know AA2 isn't flash suppressed, it's just not flashy because it's fast.

[m&p45acp10+1]

I have had decent results with Win 231/HP38. In .38 Special loads, and .45 ACP loads I do not find it to be any more dirty than most other powders loaded to the low pressure level both operate at. I also still use a lot of Bull's Eye.

A few minutes with a brush, some gun cleaner, a few patches, and a couple of drops of oil will clean things up nicely.

[jamaica]

Never bought a pound of Universal. Have used lots of 231. It is good powder.

[Nick_C_S]

m&p45acp10+1 said: I have had decent results with Win 231/HP38. In .38 Special loads, and .45 ACP loads I do not find it to be any more dirty than most other powders loaded to the low pressure level both operate at. I also still use a lot of Bull's Eye.

^^ Could have been me talking. ^^

I use 231 a lot for 45 and 38 - especially 45. For whatever reason, 231 seems to hard to find around here. I'm having much better luck with AA powders. I recently got ahold of a bunch of AA2 (& AA5), so I'm creating a lot of recipes for AA2. I've decided that I'm going to reserve my precious <2Lbs of 231 for 45 ACP only - everything else is getting "converted" to an AA2 recipe.

I just don't consider 231 to be a "dirty" powder. In fact, its cleanliness was what sold me on it (from Red Dot) some 28 years ago. Been using it more than any other powder ever since (save, this recent powder shortage craziness).

I'm pretty sure if you underload any powder, it becomes dirty. Most powders have a window where they burn fairly clean. Even HS-6, lol

[Hammerhead]

I'm pretty sure if you underload any powder, it becomes dirty. Most powders have a window where they burn fairly clean. Even HS-6, lol

I don't fully agree. It seems that the single base flake powders do burn more cleanly than spherical double base powders like HS-6 and 231 at low pressure.

Universal, 4756, 7625 all burn cleanly in reduced loads. They are supposed to burn at a cooler temp, which seems to help reduce smoke in revolvers. OTOH they tend to be more position sensitive and have a reputation as being more spiky at max charges, so there's no free lunch.

[Nick_C_S]

No doubt, some powders are cleaner than others. And some powders burn cleaner when loaded down than others. Some powders have a narrow window where they burn clean; and others a wide window.

Looking at HS-6:

357Mag, 125g JHP, 9.5g HS-6, burned filthy as can be. 1074 fps 3" bbl; 1136 fps 4" bbl.

Same bullet - 10.6g HS-6, burned fairly clean. 1237 fps 3" bbl; 1273 fps 4" bbl.

Same bullet - 11.2g HS-6, burned very clean. 1271 fps 3" bbl; 1315 fps 4" bbl.

I consider HS-6 to be a "dirty" powder. But when loaded up, it's really quite clean. I use it a lot for 45 ACP, after going through the same type of "growing pains" shown above, to find the "sweet spot" where it really does its job well - and clean.

[j357]

I like both powders. Started out with Universal and found it to be very good, but a little dirty at lower charges - unburnt granules, some soot and smoke. As I worked up it turned out to be great.

I then started with HP-38 and found it to be a good powder for 9mm and mid to upper 38 and 357, and some .45 loads. Less smoke and easier metering in my opinion.

I personally would not load HP38-231 in a .380 due to the tight min-max range and I try to work around the 9mm loads with a heavier bullet using a different powder.

Just watch the smaller case volumes and heavier bullet combinations with HP-38/231.

[Nick_C_S]

I personally would not load HP38-231 in a .380 due to the tight min-max range and I try to work around the 9mm loads with a heavier bullet using a different powder.

Just watch the smaller case volumes and heavier bullet combinations with HP-38/231.

^^ Completely agree ^^

Need to use a more forgiving (slower) powder, for the reasons mentioned.