Conundrum

[Ron T. B.]

Ruger No 1 270 win. Been using 54.0 GRS. H414, 130 GR. bullet. standard large rifle primer (Wolf and some ancient Herters 120) Load shot well no problems. Recently started using CCI 250 and REM. 9 1/2. I've shot perhaps 50 rounds with the magnum primers. Had a primer fall out after being shot. At the time I thought maybe old brass and thought nothing of it. Next time at the range I shot about 6 rounds, everything normal, then I fired a shot that locked up the action. I took the action apart and had to tap the block with a rubber mallet to open. The case came out with a light tap of the cleaning rod. Holly Smokes! I'm glad that it was fired in a Ruger No1. Brass in the case head had been extruded into the extractor slot, and there was a small ring of extruded brass around the base of the cartridge where it is supported by the breech block. This is a book load, and not a high pressure load at that. All loading was done on a Dillion RL 550. Being somewhat stupid I thought surely that cartridge must have somehow been overloaded, so back to the range I went. I fired about half a dozen rounds when I got a smoked primer. I maybe stupid but I'm not crazy, I quit shooting.
My question; has any one ever heard that changing from standard to magnum primers can cause such a jump in pressure?
Goin' hunting this weekend back on Monday.

[TATER]

has any one ever heard that changing from standard to magnum primers can cause such a jump in pressure?

That is why they a called
magnums. But, this sounds like there is more going on than just primers,
are you trimming you brass?

[iraiam]

has any one ever heard that changing from standard to magnum primers can cause such a jump in pressure?

Absolutely, and now you have too. Changing out components without a re-workup of the load is ill advised.

54gr of H-414 is a max load (or very near max) with standard primers in my manual(s), With most any bullet weight/powder speed combination, you can get to a point where the pressure increase can be defined as exponential.

[Mike / Tx]

Absolutely, been there done that. Same thing can easily happen simply changing bullets of the same weight but of different manufacturer or design.

I had an awesome shooting load using Nosler 95gr Ballistic Tips. It was right up at the top end of the data but not quite there yet. I shot a hog with one and made a mess of things, so figured I would just swap over to the Partition of the same weight and have a better penetrating load.

Well that little switch blew the primer, and left me with a small piece of it stuck in my cheek. Needless to say I didn't try the second round just to see. I later dropped the charge and working back up, found that with using the same components, the load for the Partition maxes out at a grain and a half under where the BT does. Least thats where the smooth edges of the primer start to get squared off.

This same thing can also happen if going from say a nice sleek spitzer boat tail to semi pointed or round nose with more bearing surface. And especially when just switching from one of the cup and core type bullets, to one of the solid type that are gaining popularity.

As usual the thing to do is to back off a couple or three grains and work back up when switching things around. As you, and I also, have found out it can easily turn from good to bad very quickly. The lessons might seem small in the realm of things but if you think about the 70K or more worth of pressure it took to accomplish either of these situations, being 4" from your face, it will give you a whole new perspective on how to approach things.

I hope that the experience sticks with you and you never have to deal with it again. There are times when things happen which may not be within your control like a load which was worked up in lower temps being shot in higher temps hitting a pressure peak. These also can usually be avoided, but with some powders, can sneak up on you, but now you know when it happens the first time, not to try another just to see. To err is not the biggest issue, not to notice when it happens, and fail to recognize it is.

[Bart B.]

That's probably a maximum plus load in your rifle. Hodgdon lists 52 grains of H414 as max under 130's in a .270. Coupled with magnum primers, I'm not surprised at the results.

I suggest cutting the load by 3 grains, at least. Maybe more.

[hooligan1]

Ditto what Bart says. +1000. By using that magnum primer your supposed to decrease charge by 10% and work up.

[Ron T. B.]

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies. I am going to pull all remaining bullets with that load, and back off the recommended 10%! Had a wonderful time deer hunting, and all the deer are still in the woods.

[TATER]

Everyone is absolutely correct. Still though, You said that you shot 50 rounds with magnum primers and had one fatigued pocket.
Then, the next session everything is the same/same.. and brass is flowing into nooks and crannies…….I still have to ask and please don't be
Offended, Are you trimming your brass?

[F. Guffey]

"My question; has any one ever heard that changing from standard to magnum primers can cause such a jump in pressure?
Goin' hunting this weekend back on Monday"

Ron T.B., As you can see everyone has heard about what ever you are talking about but me, I haven't.

There was a thread about loading on a progressive press, the subject was 'accuracy'. It went something like can it be done? is it possible etc.,? and I said NO!

For the most part most got snarky, reloading on a progressive press for accuracy can not be done because no one measure and records the weight of the components. There were reloaders in the claims department 'making claims' but ???

Had you weight your components before you started reloading it would have been possible to weigh the loaded round (case, powder, bullet and primer) to determine if you had in fact loaded accurately loaded on a progressive press,

Weighing the rounds after loading was your last chance to determine if you had made a mistake. The only way to of progressive loading is weight the components first.

I do not mix head stamps, I keep cases in groups of 20, I sort by head stamp after tumbling.

I loaded 250 30/06 rounds on a Dillon 550, there was 31 grains difference between the light and heavy rounds, 31 grains of powder can render your rifle scrap or lock it up, 31 gains difference between the weight of cases will hardly be noticed when opening the bolt, especially if the powder is mid range, and all of the light cases were Winchester.

F. Guffey

[iraiam]

Reloading on a progressive press for accuracy can not be done because no one measure and records the weight of the components. There were reloaders in the claims department 'making claims' but ???

Had you weight your components before you started reloading it would have been possible to weigh the loaded round (case, powder, bullet and primer) to determine if you had in fact loaded accurately loaded on a progressive press,

Weighing the rounds after loading was your last chance to determine if you had made a mistake. The only way to of progressive loading is weight the components first.

Seems you are making numerous assumptions, perhaps a snarky reply is in order.

[F. Guffey]

“Seems you are making numerous assumptions, perhaps a snarky reply is in order”

“Next time at the range I shot about 6 rounds, everything normal, then I fired a shot that locked up the action. I took the action apart and had to tap the block with a rubber mallet to open. The case came out with a light tap of the cleaning rod. Holly Smokes! I'm glad that it was fired in a Ruger No1. Brass in the case head had been extruded into the extractor slot, and there was a small ring of extruded brass around the base of the cartridge where it is supported by the breech block. This is a book load, and not a high pressure load at that. All loading was done on a Dillon RL 550”

Tater said: Everyone is absolutely correct. Still though, You said that you shot 50 rounds with magnum primers and had one fatigued pocket.
Then, the next session everything is the same/same.. and brass is flowing into nooks and crannies…….I still have to ask and please don't be
Offended, Are you trimming your brass?

And Tater suggested: “Pease don’t be Offended.....” to another suggestion.....? Then there is that part were he suggested same/same, same/same is a take off of an old Greek term iso-iso which in American slang is same-o same-o. Ignored in all of this before Tater is the “Next time at the range I shot about 6 rounds, everything normal” then suddenly, all at once and without warning he fired one round that locked up his action.

Back to Tater, It is one giant step from “everything normal” to a “a ring of extruded brass” Tater does not think a reloader can get there with just a magnum primer. I agree, I know a reloader can not make that spread with a magnum primer.

I do not go through life tunnel blind, I do not look at reloading through a fiber paper towel tube/

I was at a range, between me and a very disciplined reloader was reloader/on a Dillon/shooter, it was obvious there was something wrong with the Model 66 S&W, he could not pull the trigger, he could not pull the hammer back, he could not rotate the cylinder nor could he swing the clinger out, his pistol was locked-up, we stopped and helped, his reloads did not have enough powder to push the bullet down the barrel, after we unlocked his pistol he started filling his cylinder as though nothing happened, we offered him all the ammo he could shoot, we offered to check his reloads, we offered to follow him home and help him with his methods and or techniques, we offered to loan him equipment for testing the weight of his loaded rounds when determining if he had no powder in one case and too much in the next, the only thing the shooter/reloader understood was the part about ‘he was not going to stand between us and shoot his ammo he knew nothing about’.

The very disciplined reloader met me at the range with 45ACP he loaded, Not a problem for me but I build a 45ACP that likes new ammo, I find no fault with the accuracy so I applied the ‘leaver policy’ I leve-er the way I built-er. The short story, his ammo did no better than my attempts, he gave ever his ammo to ever 45 shooter there, they wanted more, Point: I informed the reloader I used a full length sizer as a crimp die, after crimping with the sizer my 45 1911 could not distinguish reloads from new ammo. I drove home, crimped his cases with a full length sizer then returned to the range. His ammo flew through the 1911. Like a Car Max commercial, there is something about that ‘that just aint right’.

And then? There was the primmer that ‘just fell out’, weighing the loaded cases was his last chance, the ‘falling out primer was his last warning.

F. Guffey

[snuffy]

For the most part most got snarky, reloading on a progressive press for accuracy can not be done because no one measure and records the weight of the components. There were reloaders in the claims department 'making claims' but ???

Had you weight do you mean weighED? your components before you started reloading it would have been possible to weigh the loaded round (case, powder, bullet and primer) to determine if you had in fact loaded accurately loaded on a progressive press,

Weighing the rounds after loading was your last chance to determine if you had made a mistake. The only way to of progressive loading is weight weigh? the components first.

Weighing loaded rounds is futile at best. Do you weigh each and every primer? How about the cases. I can see being careful, but weighing, marking each and every case would result in taking all day to load 20 rounds. And for what? Then to be able to weigh each loaded round? Again, for what purpose? Doing that with handgun rounds will drive you nuts. There's enough variance in brass weight to not be able to even see a difference in the powder charge.

Do you NOT believe the weight that is marked on the box of bullets? While it's possible to have one heavier bullet in with 99 the right weight, it's size would be apparent when it's seated.

I do not go through life tunnel blind, I do not look at reloading through a fiber paper towel tube/

Huh? What?

Point: I informed the reloader I used a full length sizer as a crimp die, after crimping with the sizer my 45 1911 could not distinguish reloads from new ammo.

You do WHAT? That would squeeze the bullet as well as the case, resulting in a VERY loose bullet. See, the bullet cannot spring back while the case does, result; a loose bullet. What's wrong with a normal taper crimp?

As for the good as new ammo, I make reloads that are better than factory new ammo. I wouldn't reload if I couldn't!

Ron T B, the cci 250 IS a magnum primer, but the rem 9-½ is not. Unless it has a M after the 9-½. It's considered a normal/standard primer. But as others have said, you should have backed it down and started over.

[Nevmavrick]

You MAY have changed more than just the primers....COULD you have changed powder containers (lots)? May you have opened a new box of bullets in the course of loading? Were ALL the cases from the same bag???
Can you imagine if you had substituted Federal 215s instead of CCI 250s?
Life gets VERY interesting.
Reloading works because you CAN pay more attention to detail...but then you MUST.
Have fun,
Gene

[Nevmavrick]

CAN you load for accuracy on a progressive? Oh, sure, IF you pay attention to the details of loading.
I've shot against a few that have partaken of the blue Kool-Aid, and if they'll do what's necessary, they're as hard to beat as MY ammo.
Have fun,
Gene

[F. Guffey]

Snuffy, it takes all kinds and types, if your ammo has to be pretty, make it pretty. I did not say the ammo was too ugly to shoot, I said the pistol shot new ammo, it would not shoot reloads. For me is was a matter of measuring new ammo and comparing it with reloads, that included reloads from two other sources. Crimping with the full length sizer die produces cases that were identical to new ammo.

Dies, there is no shortage of dies around here, I have 5 sets of 45ACP dies from different manufacturers, the carbide RCBS sizer die was the only one that would allow for reducing the diameter of the case to chamber. After seating the bullets the cases looked like short fat snakes that swallowed bullets. The full length sizer removed the bullet bulge, not my intent but removing the bulge improved the appearance, I know, your ammo is prettier.

No I did not full length size the case, I removed the bulge. I have heard that one about the bullet and recovery then there is the case expanding, after that the bullet is loose in the case. If there was any trout to that ‘old wife's tale’ I could turn the bullet in the case.

That is not the only slide assemble I have, I said I applied the ‘leaver policy’ because of accuracy, I left-er the way I built-er.

I am not the only reloader that uses this technique and or method. It is possible I am the only one the ‘Huh’ and WHAT? does not bother.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

“I shot about 6 rounds, everything normal, then I fired a shot that locked up the action”

Snuffy! How can a magnum primer make the leap from “everything normal” to “locked up the action”, something else was wrong. I understand, you are part of the choir, I am not talking to the choir, I am not the fan of suggesting a reloader go from a dead start to a dead run. He said he loaded his ammo on a Dillon RL 550, the first batch of ammo I loaded on my 550 was 250 rounds of 30/06 using 25 different head stamps. Same bullet, primer and powder, when finished I had a spread between the heaves round and the lightest round. The only variable was the weight of the case.

Before the Dillon 550, I loaded on a RCBS Piggy Back 11 with a lock out die. Now I load bottle neck cases on the Dillon 550 with a powder checker die.

And to answer one of your ‘HUH’, yes I weighed every one of the 250 rounds loaded in the first secession, I am the only one that wanted to know If the Dillon would load accurate ammo, not ammo that passes through the same hole, I am talking about the Dillon accurately loading ammo, then the deductive reasoning part, if the reloader does not know the weight of the components how can they determine if the press loads accurately?

F. Guffey

[snuffy]

F. Guffey, you're making no sense. Will Rogers said "if you find yourself in a hole, quit digging". If I were you, I'd quit while you're only as far behind logic as you are.

Let me see if I can make sense of what you're saying. IF you're just using the fl 45 die to remove the bell on the case, left there by the expander/bell stem, them that's fine. If you're running them into the sizer all-the-way, then you're sizing the bullet as well as sizing the case; Result is a loose bullet!

I could see taking the decapper assy. out of the sizer die, then backing it out/up until it's just touching the case mouth to remove the bell. But any more than that will cause the bullet to get loose.

Case bulge? It's entirely normal for semi-auto cases to look ;

like short fat snakes that swallowed bullets. The full length sizer removed the bullet bulge, not my intent but removing the bulge improved the appearance, I know, your ammo is prettier.

.
Mine look just like that, they feed and shoot just fine in my SA 45 1911. Same for my 40's, and my 9's. Appearance? I tumble before loading, that's all. Sometimes I don't even do that. If they're clean, they get loaded.

Oh, get a spell checker, or at least proof read!

[F. Guffey]

I am sure Will or Mark said something about or something like "You can not be that stupid", but insult through innuendo shows a lack of character.

The full length sizer die will not fit a case that has been belled, I said I remove the bulge, removing the bulge allows reloads to be used in the pistol.

Removing bullets from the cases would be easy if the bullet was sized down and the case jumped back, snapped back or sprung back, if the bullet was loose it would seat deeper into the case when chambered.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

“I shot about 6 rounds, everything normal, then I fired a shot that locked up the action”

Snuffy! How can a magnum primer make the leap from “everything normal” to “locked up the action”, something else was wrong. I understand, you are part of the choir, I am not talking to the choir, I am not the fan of suggesting a reloader go from a dead start to a dead run. He said he loaded his ammo on a Dillon RL 550, the first batch of ammo I loaded on my 550 was 250 rounds of 30/06 using 25 different head stamps. Same bullet, primer and powder, when finished I had a spread between the heaves round and the lightest round. The only variable was the weight of the case.

F. Guffey