Why isn't there a 357 super magnum?

Daekar · April 12, 2011, 10:38 PM

Please excuse any diaplays of ignorance here... but I was looking at the revolver calibers and wondering why there isn't a longer cased version of the 357. The bullets are wide enough to expand effectively, and I'm pretty sure there would be demand for a hunting revolver that had more power with a decent BC round. With the right brass, such a round could easily match or exceed 30-30 velocities out of a carbine and would bring larger game into reach than the 357 allows. All of this with flatter trajectory and likely better sectional density than a 44 mag.

Has somebody made this round and I just didn't get the memo?

Auto426 · April 12, 2011, 10:40 PM

You are looking for a .357 Maximum.

Andy Taylor · April 12, 2011, 10:47 PM

Yep, .357 Maximum

Daekar · April 12, 2011, 10:56 PM

Well crap, it's a dead cartridge. That's not good! Weird that they didn't fix whatever was wrong with it rather than just drop it completely. Could've been the ultimate versatile cartridge.

Smaug · April 12, 2011, 11:30 PM

What can't one do with a .357 Magnum?

One can hunt deer, defend oneself, target shoot. It makes plenty of noise and fire. Why would you need more?

If you need more, there's always .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, and a whole mess of "mine's bigger than yours" calibers by S&W and Ruger.

TenRing · April 12, 2011, 11:51 PM

The .357 Maximum would mainly contribute to more hearing loss. The .44 mag delivers more power from a larger, heavier bullet and with less muzzle blast. You can also buy excellent rifles chambered for .44 mag. Why put the .357 on steroids when the .44 is better suited for heavier shooting?

bamaranger · April 13, 2011, 12:21 AM

I think bill Ruger claimed that Remington changed the loading to a different powder type after their revolver in .357 Max was introduced. In any event, they were hard on forcing cones and topstraps.

FrankenMauser · April 13, 2011, 12:45 AM

Quote:

I think bill Ruger claimed that Remington changed the loading to a different powder type after their revolver in .357 Max was introduced. In any event, they were hard on forcing cones and topstraps.

That's the "word on the street". However, long term owners found gas cutting of top straps would stop before it did enough damage to be an issue.

Me....
I've always been waiting for an affordable lever gun chambered in .357 Maximum.

Jim March · April 13, 2011, 03:18 AM

What's not dead is Gary Reeder's 356GNR - a 41Mag shell necked down to 357, with horsepower very close to the 357Max but in a standard-length cylinder.

Getting one is "fairly easy". You go buy a Ruger large-frame SA Blackhawk with the 9mm second conversion cylinder, you send the 9mm cylinder off to Gary Reeder with about $300, it comes back in 356GNR with dies and loading data

. You can also buy loaded ammo from Cartridge Performance, started by one of Gary's former employees, so it's actually a "semi-wildcat"...

You can also convert a 357 large-frame Ruger to a dedicated 356GNR, or do so to a six-shot S&W N-frame 357. In the latter case you'll get loading data that's a bit watered down as it's not quite as strong a gun...

madcratebuilder · April 13, 2011, 06:46 AM

There are still a few folks shooting the .357 super mag. Brass is readily available, several custom shops reload the caliber. It shines at longer ranges, 100 to 200 yds it rings those steels with regularity. The top strap erosion is self limiting, Dan Wesson addressed it by recommending a barrel gap of .002. It slows it down but you still get noticeable cutting.

Magnum Wheel Man · April 13, 2011, 08:06 AM

got a Contender barrel too

no top strap issue with my "little Dan"

Singlesix1954 · April 13, 2011, 08:19 AM

Cool thread. I'v planed on adding a Ruger 357 Max. to my colection for quite some time. I just haven't run across one that is in good shape for the price I want to pay. If folks got more pics of anything in this cal. lets see them.

hartlock · April 13, 2011, 08:46 AM

I have used the .357 super mag, as those of us in IHMSA like to call it, and
it is a wonderful round. It is good at 200 meters for the 50 lb rams and will
take them over with ease, with the correct bullets. The problem with the
round was the light bullets loaded in factory rounds. The cartridge was not
designed around the 158 grain factory load, but was meant for 180 grain
and above weight bullets. And, loaded with the correct bullets and powder
charges, alot of loads exceed the power of the .44 magnum.

TJH3781 · April 13, 2011, 08:49 AM

Pachmayr Dominator in 357 Max.

TJH3781 · April 13, 2011, 09:02 AM

http://www.bellmtcs.com

The link is a good source for 357 Max information. The site has alot on it, so you need to pick & choose your area of interest.

wdelack · April 13, 2011, 04:57 PM

It should be noted that .357 Maximum and .357 SuperMag are not the same cartridge.
.357 Maximum has a 1.605" case length
.357 SuperMag has a 1.610" case length (as do the .375 .414, and .445 SuperMag cartridges).

Edit:
I should add that there was another .357 caliber cartridge called a .360 Dan Wesson, case length is 1.41".

Clifford L. Hughes · April 13, 2011, 05:15 PM

Daekar:

The reason that the 357 maximum was dropped is because it eroded the Black Hawk's top strap just above the forcing cone. A Thompson Contender would handle this round but I don't think that ammo is being manufactured now.

Semper Fi.

Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired

SundownRider · April 13, 2011, 05:27 PM

There is. Its called a .44.

Deaf Smith · April 13, 2011, 06:16 PM

I think some gunsmith modifed the Marlin 1894 .357 Magnum to shoot Maximums.

Sure wish Marlin had taken up the idea. I bet it would outdo the 30/30 at closer ranges.

Deaf

laytonj1 · April 13, 2011, 06:27 PM

Quote:

It should be noted that .357 Maximum and .357 SuperMag are not the same cartridge.
.357 Maximum has a 1.605" case length
.357 SuperMag has a 1.610" case length (as do the .375 .414, and .445 SuperMag cartridges).

How much of a difference does .005" really make? Were there internal differences?
My Dan Wesson model 40 is labeled both. SuperMag and 357 Maximum, depending which side of the barrel you look at.

Jim

laytonj1 · April 13, 2011, 06:34 PM

Quote:

What can't one do with a .357 Magnum?

Knock down heavy steel rams at 200 meters reliably.
The 357 Maximum was designed for silhouette competition were you needed a really flat shooting cartridge with enough power to knock over the rams without the recoil that would come with a 44 magnum.

Launching a .357" 180gr. to 200gr. bullet at ~1500 fps was the perfect solution at the time.

Jim

T. O'Heir · April 13, 2011, 06:39 PM

"...Weird that they didn't fix whatever was wrong with it..." Stuff that doesn't meet the sales projections gets dropped regularly. Costs too much to fix.

ltc444 · April 13, 2011, 09:34 PM

I worked for a former VP for Smith & Wesson. He explained that the 357 Max caused excess errosion between the cylinder and the barrell.

Dan wesson with its adjustiable barrell was the only design which could deal with the errosion problem. According to him S&W expermented with the round and could not eliminate the problem.

hartlock · April 14, 2011, 08:19 AM

Well, Ive been using my Mark 40 Dan Wesson, with 8" barrel for over 21
years in IHMSA competition, and guess what? My top strap isnt cut through
yet! A lot of this nonsense started when certain members of the gun press,
such as the late Bob Milek, got their panties in a was because none of them
were consulted in development of the round. Milek was an incessant critic
of this cartridge. I had a Ruger 10" barreled revolver that I started with, it
now belongs to another silhouette shooter buddy of mine, and he is still
shooting it. This whole business of the top strap cutting is a non-issue. It
goes so far, and then stops.

wdelack · April 14, 2011, 02:04 PM

Quote:

How much of a difference does .005" really make?

Do know, will a SM cartridge chamber in a revolver that is marked for Maximum only?

Quote:

This whole business of the top strap cutting is a non-issue. It goes so far, and then stops.

Agreed. The top strap cutting and forcing cone erosion had more to do with light weight bullets being pushed at very high velocities. This is not what the Max and SM were designed for.

Quote:

My Dan Wesson model 40 is labeled both.

So is mine...

April 12, 2011, 10:38 PM	#1
Daekar Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2011 Posts: 458	Why isn't there a 357 super magnum? Please excuse any diaplays of ignorance here... but I was looking at the revolver calibers and wondering why there isn't a longer cased version of the 357. The bullets are wide enough to expand effectively, and I'm pretty sure there would be demand for a hunting revolver that had more power with a decent BC round. With the right brass, such a round could easily match or exceed 30-30 velocities out of a carbine and would bring larger game into reach than the 357 allows. All of this with flatter trajectory and likely better sectional density than a 44 mag. Has somebody made this round and I just didn't get the memo?

April 12, 2011, 10:40 PM	#2
Auto426 Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2007 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 1,323	You are looking for a .357 Maximum. __________________ *"Si vis pacem, para bellum"* - If you want peace, prepare for war.

April 12, 2011, 11:30 PM	#5
Smaug Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2004 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 3,210	It died because it wasn't needed. What can't one do with a .357 Magnum? One can hunt deer, defend oneself, target shoot. It makes plenty of noise and fire. Why would you need more? If you need more, there's always .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, and a whole mess of "mine's bigger than yours" calibers by S&W and Ruger. __________________ -Jeremy "Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength." - Eric Hoffer

April 13, 2011, 12:21 AM	#7
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	problem I think bill Ruger claimed that Remington changed the loading to a different powder type after their revolver in .357 Max was introduced. In any event, they were hard on forcing cones and topstraps.

April 13, 2011, 03:18 AM	#9
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	What's not dead is Gary Reeder's 356GNR - a 41Mag shell necked down to 357, with horsepower very close to the 357Max but in a standard-length cylinder. Getting one is "fairly easy". You go buy a Ruger large-frame SA Blackhawk with the 9mm second conversion cylinder, you send the 9mm cylinder off to Gary Reeder with about $300, it comes back in 356GNR with dies and loading data . You can also buy loaded ammo from Cartridge Performance, started by one of Gary's former employees, so it's actually a "semi-wildcat"... You can also convert a 357 large-frame Ruger to a dedicated 356GNR, or do so to a six-shot S&W N-frame 357. In the latter case you'll get loading data that's a bit watered down as it's not quite as strong a gun... __________________ Jim March

April 12, 2011, 10:47 PM	#3
Andy Taylor Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Posts: 499	Yep, .357 Maximum

April 12, 2011, 10:56 PM	#4
Daekar Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2011 Posts: 458	Well crap, it's a dead cartridge. That's not good! Weird that they didn't fix whatever was wrong with it rather than just drop it completely. Could've been the ultimate versatile cartridge.

April 12, 2011, 11:51 PM	#6
TenRing Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Posts: 427	The .357 Maximum would mainly contribute to more hearing loss. The .44 mag delivers more power from a larger, heavier bullet and with less muzzle blast. You can also buy excellent rifles chambered for .44 mag. Why put the .357 on steroids when the .44 is better suited for heavier shooting?

April 13, 2011, 06:46 AM	#10
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	There are still a few folks shooting the .357 super mag. Brass is readily available, several custom shops reload the caliber. It shines at longer ranges, 100 to 200 yds it rings those steels with regularity. The top strap erosion is self limiting, Dan Wesson addressed it by recommending a barrel gap of .002. It slows it down but you still get noticeable cutting.

April 13, 2011, 08:06 AM	#11
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	yep... love mine got a Contender barrel too no top strap issue with my "little Dan" __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

April 13, 2011, 08:19 AM	#12
Singlesix1954 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2009 Location: Rural Ne Posts: 580	Cool thread. I'v planed on adding a Ruger 357 Max. to my colection for quite some time. I just haven't run across one that is in good shape for the price I want to pay. If folks got more pics of anything in this cal. lets see them. __________________ Luke 22:36 Single six 1954

April 13, 2011, 08:46 AM	#13
hartlock Junior member Join Date: January 10, 2010 Location: lockhart, texas Posts: 161	.357 maximum I have used the .357 super mag, as those of us in IHMSA like to call it, and it is a wonderful round. It is good at 200 meters for the 50 lb rams and will take them over with ease, with the correct bullets. The problem with the round was the light bullets loaded in factory rounds. The cartridge was not designed around the 158 grain factory load, but was meant for 180 grain and above weight bullets. And, loaded with the correct bullets and powder charges, alot of loads exceed the power of the .44 magnum.

April 13, 2011, 08:49 AM	#14
TJH3781 Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2009 Location: Rockford IL Posts: 149	Pachmayr Dominator in 357 Max.

April 13, 2011, 09:02 AM	#15
TJH3781 Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2009 Location: Rockford IL Posts: 149	http://www.bellmtcs.com The link is a good source for 357 Max information. The site has alot on it, so you need to pick & choose your area of interest.

April 13, 2011, 04:57 PM	#16
wdelack Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Location: Houston, TX. Posts: 439	It should be noted that .357 Maximum and .357 SuperMag are not the same cartridge. .357 Maximum has a 1.605" case length .357 SuperMag has a 1.610" case length (as do the .375 .414, and .445 SuperMag cartridges). Edit: I should add that there was another .357 caliber cartridge called a .360 Dan Wesson, case length is 1.41". Last edited by wdelack; April 13, 2011 at 05:13 PM.

April 13, 2011, 05:15 PM	#17
Clifford L. Hughes Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2011 Location: Southern Californis Posts: 795	Clifford L. Hughes Daekar: The reason that the 357 maximum was dropped is because it eroded the Black Hawk's top strap just above the forcing cone. A Thompson Contender would handle this round but I don't think that ammo is being manufactured now. Semper Fi. Gunnery sergeant Clifford L. Hughes USMC Retired

April 13, 2011, 05:27 PM	#18
SundownRider Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 509	There is. Its called a .44. __________________ " Of every One-Hundred men, Ten shouldn't even be there, Eighty are nothing but targets, Nine are real fighters... We are lucky to have them...They make the battle. Ah, but the One, One of them is a Warrior... and He will bring the others back." - Heraclitus (circa 500 BC)

April 13, 2011, 06:16 PM	#19
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	I think some gunsmith modifed the Marlin 1894 .357 Magnum to shoot Maximums. Sure wish Marlin had taken up the idea. I bet it would outdo the 30/30 at closer ranges. Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

April 13, 2011, 06:39 PM	#22
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...Weird that they didn't fix whatever was wrong with it..." Stuff that doesn't meet the sales projections gets dropped regularly. Costs too much to fix. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

April 13, 2011, 09:34 PM	#23
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	I worked for a former VP for Smith & Wesson. He explained that the 357 Max caused excess errosion between the cylinder and the barrell. Dan wesson with its adjustiable barrell was the only design which could deal with the errosion problem. According to him S&W expermented with the round and could not eliminate the problem.

April 14, 2011, 08:19 AM	#24
hartlock Junior member Join Date: January 10, 2010 Location: lockhart, texas Posts: 161	Well, Ive been using my Mark 40 Dan Wesson, with 8" barrel for over 21 years in IHMSA competition, and guess what? My top strap isnt cut through yet! A lot of this nonsense started when certain members of the gun press, such as the late Bob Milek, got their panties in a was because none of them were consulted in development of the round. Milek was an incessant critic of this cartridge. I had a Ruger 10" barreled revolver that I started with, it now belongs to another silhouette shooter buddy of mine, and he is still shooting it. This whole business of the top strap cutting is a non-issue. It goes so far, and then stops.