Reholstering Safetyless DAO's

Dashunde · January 7, 2012, 10:45 AM

Lately I've come across several people commenting on their worries about carrying a DAO with no safety.
Personally I think they're great - no chance of it going off unless the trigger is pulled - the spring energy to fire the round simply is not there.

There is only one concern I have with carrying DAO pistol - Reholstering it.
I'm wondering what the rest of you - who actually carry a safetyless DAO - do about it?

With my LCP and PM9, I make a concentraited effort to carefully put my index finger behind the trigger while reholstering to ensure that it doesnt go off because of a obstruction like a shirt tail, jacket zipper, etc..
The finger not only blocks it from being pulled, but you'll also feel something out of the ordinary pushing on the trigger.

I do the same thing with my G27, its a tighter fit but it works.

I feel that my only exposure to a FAIL is while putting my finger behind there, and if I cant get that right every time I probably shouldnt be carrying anything...

BerettaBuckeye · January 7, 2012, 10:55 AM

My solution is to carry XD's( when I'm not carrying a 1911

) and grip them so as to NOT activate the grip safety while reholstering

TunnelRat · January 7, 2012, 10:59 AM

When I carry a revolver I don't really worry about it tbh. Keep your finger off the trigger and make sure your holster is firm enough that nothing will bend into the trigger guard. Even if it did the amount of force needed should at least give you pause to see what is wrong. That said I do watch the trigger guard as I holster.

Walt Sherrill · January 7, 2012, 11:17 AM

First of all, the LC9, PM9, and Glocks aren't true DAO guns. They are (to use Glock's terminology) a "safe action" design; the firing mechanism has been partially cocked by slide movement. As long as there's a round in the chamber, the firing mechanism is partially cocked.

Putting your finger behind the trigger as you holster the gun is arguably far less safe than just keeping your finger AWAY FROM THE TRIGGER!!

You're not being MORE SAFE by doing what you're doing -- you're being less safe!! Having your finger around the trigger while holstering it is increasing the risk of a negligent or accidental discharge, not reducing it!.

Just assure yourself that the holster is clear (nothing in it that could catch the trigger), keep you finger out of the trigger guard, and holster the gun.

Dashunde · January 7, 2012, 11:31 AM

Quote:

the LC9, PM9, and Glocks aren't true DAO guns.. the firing mechanism has been partially cocked by slide movement. As long as there's a round in the chamber, the firing mechanism is partially cocked.

True. But none of them are cocked enough, or have enough spring pressure to fire the round without it being pulled further back by the trigger.
The firing pins are also blocked if the trigger is not pulled.
My point is they are nearly impossible to make fire without the trigger being pulled.

Nathan · January 7, 2012, 11:37 AM

Aren't they just one time use and you throw them away when done?

longcall911 · January 7, 2012, 11:54 AM

I agree that placing the trigger finger behind the trigger is *not* a good idea. Finger goes on the slide, guiding the barrel into the holster . When you feel the holster with the finger, lift it and seat the gun.

That said, you should avoid holstering/unholstering as much as possible. When getting dressed, holster before any top layers of clothing.

Walt Sherrill · January 7, 2012, 12:45 PM

Quote:

True. But none of them are cocked enough, or have enough spring pressure to fire the round without it being pulled further back by the trigger.
The firing pins are also blocked if the trigger is not pulled.

My point is they are nearly impossible to make fire without the trigger being pulled.

Exactly. Make sure the holster is clear and keep your finger away from the trigger when holstering or unholstering.

Shadi Khalil · January 7, 2012, 01:50 PM

It's DAO, not DOA. I don't think there is any safer action type.

vvanders · January 7, 2012, 01:57 PM

This is why I like comptac's leather/kydex holsters. No chance for the holster to fold in on the trigger guard.

Like others have said, just keep your finger out of the trigger and visually make sure the holster is clear when putting away.

DPris · January 7, 2012, 01:57 PM

If you have a triggerguard and a correctly functioning holster with nothing that protrudes into the triggerguard on holstering, just holster the gun.
No need to over-think it, and good reason to KEEP YOUR FINGER OUT OF THE TRIGGERGUARD while you're holstering.

If this is an obsession with you, you're probably right in not carrying anything.
Denis

RC20 · January 7, 2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

It's DAO, not DOA. I don't think there is any safer action type.

Like he said. It scare me you have your finger in the trigger area.

Worst case if you are concerned about things getting in there would be to cover the side of the trigger guard with your finer, keep it OUT of the inside of the trigger guard area. It will not stop all, but it will fully from one side and you should feel anything that stick through to that side.

You should also be extremely sensitive to any resistance when putting the gun away. 6 llbs or so is gong to be noticeable

Better yet get a DA/SA, the DA part takes 10 lbs or so to active, and much safer than the DAO at the 6 lbs, and even more so for those tuned Glocks with their 4 or even 3 lbl triggers.

And I do not think the DAO is a good system (unless the pull is a full 10 lbs) . In the interest of consistent trigger pull, it sacrifices safety. If you can't manage the shift from DA to SA, you should not be carrying a gun.

chris in va · January 7, 2012, 03:48 PM

I must be living on the edge then, been using a Clipdraw for years.

Kreyzhorse · January 7, 2012, 04:02 PM

Quote:

I agree that placing the trigger finger behind the trigger is *not* a good idea. Finger goes on the slide, guiding the barrel into the holster . When you feel the holster with the finger, lift it and seat the gun.

That said, you should avoid holstering/unholstering as much as possible. When getting dressed, holster before any top layers of clothing.

+1.

I carry a Glock and a Ruger LCP and simply avoid holstering and unholstering. If I'm going some place I can't carry, I usually will carry a gun like the LCP that can simply be taken off in the holster.

dajowi · January 7, 2012, 05:59 PM

Can of worms here.

I've owned 1911s, DA autos, and DA revolvers. Shoulder rigs and IWB were the usual method of carry. I've shot pistols for over 40 years. I am a NRA certified RSO and never have had an accidental discharge. I've never felt "uncomfortably safe" with a firearm...until I purchased a Glock. The nominal 5 pound trigger pull seemed light to me even considering I generally shoot SA autos. After a couple of years and a slew of "improvements" including a Ten Ring Precision manual safety installation, I got rid of it. It was the one handgun which I wish I hadn't wasted my money on.

MLeake · January 7, 2012, 06:08 PM

If you are that worried about it, switch from your striker guns to hammer guns, like the LC9. Keep your thumb on the hammer as you holster, and you will immediately feel it if anything starts to snag or pull the trigger.

The lack of tactile feedback, not the lack of "second strike" capability, is the main concern I have with striker types (though I do like my M&Ps).

As others have said, finger in the trigger guard is a problem waiting to happen.

Kimbertron · January 7, 2012, 06:18 PM

I carry a Ruger sp101 DAO and when I'm getting dressed I visually make sure there is nothing in the trigger guard as I am holstering. Biggest thing to me is just making sure you are not slamming the gum into the holster without much thought. I know the way some people carry they would not be able to see as they are holstering though but this method is what I am comfortable with.

Dashunde · January 7, 2012, 08:58 PM

Perhaps I should explain a bit more...
This is something I do mostly at the range while practicing draw and fire from 3-4 o'clock IWB cover with a jacket or shirt on and in the way.
I cant see a thing back around there, its all feel.

I believe that repeated drills like that pose a far greater trigger snag risk than me putting my finger on the back of the trigger (that I just fired) while reholstering for the next run.

I expected the "sky is falling" crowd to uproar loudly at the idea of violating the sacred trigger guard, but the fact is I'm damn comfortable with the practice and will no way in hell be repeatedly re-holstering over and over without keeping track of that trigger.

MLeake · January 7, 2012, 09:17 PM

Sounds like you need to get better cover garments.

The finger in the trigger guard is still a bad idea.

Walt Sherrill · January 7, 2012, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dashunde

Perhaps I should explain a bit more...
This is something I do mostly at the range while practicing draw and fire from 3-4 o'clock IWB cover with a jacket or shirt on and in the way.
I cant see a thing back around there, its all feel...

I expected the "sky is falling" crowd to uproar loudly at the idea of violating the sacred trigger guard, but the fact is I'm damn comfortable with the practice and will no way in hell be repeatedly re-holstering over and over without keeping track of that trigger.

Of course you do it mostly at the range. Where else can you actually practice "draw and fire?" Sounds like you're trying to reshape your story a bit to make it sound less goofy. (Of course, you can practice presentations and trigger pulls with an empty gun in the safety of your home.)

If you expected the response you got, that could suggest two likely reasons for this exercise: you were either 1) trolling, or 2) trying to see if you could make converts.

If the first, you were successful; if the second, you were an utter failure.

Either way, I'm not playing any more.

**Tom Servo** · January 8, 2012, 12:05 AM

Quote:

I expected the "sky is falling" crowd to uproar loudly at the idea of violating the sacred trigger guard, but the fact is I'm damn comfortable with the practice and will no way in hell be repeatedly re-holstering over and over without keeping track of that trigger.

Dashunde, I'd like to ask two things of you. The first is that you use more temperate language.

The second is that you consider the reasons for our objections to your practice. The idea of keeping one's finger out of the trigger guard is enshrined in one of the four fundamental rules of gun safety. I've seen injuries that occur from failure to follow that rule several times. They are not pretty.

That rule is so deeply ingrained in our consciousness as shooters that we react with great alarm when we see (or hear of) it being broken. We don't easily accept deviations from it, and anyone who proposes doing so must bear a fairly heavy burden in proving that they're not doing something potentially dangerous.

Frankly, I don't know a single RSO, instructor, or shooter in general who would not cry foul if they saw you doing that at the range, and for good reason. You're placing yourself in harm's way.

Dashunde · January 8, 2012, 09:56 AM

Quote:

The idea of keeping one's finger out of the trigger guard is enshrined in one of the four fundamental rules of gun safety.

While that is sound advise, it does not completely hold water anymore for me for two reasons:
Its prior to light DAO trigger systems without any form of mechanical safety to lock/block the trigger.
Its prior to iwb concealed carry as we now know it using those pistols.

My suggestion is just a work-around to deal with a singular shortcoming of a otherwise trustworthy trigger system on a few specific pistols.

I find it interesting that many of you are comfortable manipulating the assorted levers on modern pistols and doing all of the other things that require concentration and finger control, including the dreaded act of decocking a loaded 1911, but you wont trust the tip of your finger to nudge up against the back of a DAO trigger during reholstering.

Its a rock and a hard spot for me...
If my DAO's had a manual safety I would use it and never trespass the trigger guard.
If my DAO's had a manual safety I wouldn't carry them - I probably would not have bought them in the first place.

MLeake · January 8, 2012, 10:20 AM

Again, get a hammer fired DA or DAO. Thumb on back of the hammer:

1. Will detect any tendency for the hammer to be pushed rearward, allowing you to stop pushing down and to identify the problem;

2. Prevent the hammer from coming back far enough to actuate;

3. Enable you to prevent the slide from being pushed out of battery when holstering. (This is one reason why thumb on back of slide is recommended for most striker guns, too; frame mounted thumb safeties prevent rearward slide movement - except in cases like the FNX - but slide mounted do not, nor do decockers.)

Your technique is unlikely to win any fans here. I have not met an instructor who has ever advocated it. I think you would be better off with a hammer fired auto, or a revolver.

Dashunde · January 8, 2012, 10:57 AM

What DAO has a hammer and no manual safety? Like the LCP.

On a side note, I sure do wish Ruger had made the LC9 simple, just like the LCP.

MLeake · January 8, 2012, 11:06 AM

LC9
SIG P239 or P22x DAK
Beretta PX4
S&W 3rd Gen (used)
Seecamp

List goes on; not hard to find. Many common DA/SA guns have DAO siblings. In some cases, manufacturers offer conversion kits.

January 7, 2012, 10:45 AM	#1
Dashunde Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Posts: 2,018	Reholstering Safetyless DAO's Lately I've come across several people commenting on their worries about carrying a DAO with no safety. Personally I think they're great - no chance of it going off unless the trigger is pulled - the spring energy to fire the round simply is not there. There is only one concern I have with carrying DAO pistol - Reholstering it. I'm wondering what the rest of you - who actually carry a safetyless DAO - do about it? With my LCP and PM9, I make a concentraited effort to carefully put my index finger behind the trigger while reholstering to ensure that it doesnt go off because of a obstruction like a shirt tail, jacket zipper, etc.. The finger not only blocks it from being pulled, but you'll also feel something out of the ordinary pushing on the trigger. I do the same thing with my G27, its a tighter fit but it works. I feel that my only exposure to a FAIL is while putting my finger behind there, and if I cant get that right every time I probably shouldnt be carrying anything... Last edited by Dashunde; January 7, 2012 at 08:58 PM.

January 7, 2012, 10:55 AM	#2
BerettaBuckeye Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: In The Heart Of The Buckeye Nation Posts: 558	My solution is to carry XD's( when I'm not carrying a 1911 ) and grip them so as to NOT activate the grip safety while reholstering __________________ (\__/) "I would rather be your friend, but if you are (='.'=) not interested in that, I am prepared to be (")_(") a capable and efficient enemy." - Jeff Cooper

January 7, 2012, 10:59 AM	#3
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	When I carry a revolver I don't really worry about it tbh. Keep your finger off the trigger and make sure your holster is firm enough that nothing will bend into the trigger guard. Even if it did the amount of force needed should at least give you pause to see what is wrong. That said I do watch the trigger guard as I holster. __________________ Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness

January 7, 2012, 11:54 AM	#7
longcall911 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2008 Location: Bethlehem, PA Posts: 125	I agree that placing the trigger finger behind the trigger is not a good idea. Finger goes on the slide, guiding the barrel into the holster . When you feel the holster with the finger, lift it and seat the gun. That said, you should avoid holstering/unholstering as much as possible. When getting dressed, holster before any top layers of clothing. __________________ You say you support our troops. How about actually doing something? Your blood or platelets can save a life Armed Services Blood Program.

January 7, 2012, 11:17 AM	#4
Walt Sherrill Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA Posts: 6,348	First of all, the LC9, PM9, and Glocks aren't true DAO guns. They are (to use Glock's terminology) a "safe action" design; the firing mechanism has been partially cocked by slide movement. As long as there's a round in the chamber, the firing mechanism is partially cocked. Putting your finger behind the trigger as you holster the gun is arguably far less safe than just keeping your finger AWAY FROM THE TRIGGER!! You're not being MORE SAFE by doing what you're doing -- you're being less safe!! Having your finger around the trigger while holstering it is increasing the risk of a negligent or accidental discharge, not reducing it!. Just assure yourself that the holster is clear (nothing in it that could catch the trigger), keep you finger out of the trigger guard, and holster the gun.

January 7, 2012, 11:37 AM	#6
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	Aren't they just one time use and you throw them away when done?

January 7, 2012, 01:50 PM	#9
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	It's DAO, not DOA. I don't think there is any safer action type.

January 7, 2012, 01:57 PM	#10
vvanders Member Join Date: September 23, 2011 Posts: 18	This is why I like comptac's leather/kydex holsters. No chance for the holster to fold in on the trigger guard. Like others have said, just keep your finger out of the trigger and visually make sure the holster is clear when putting away.

January 7, 2012, 01:57 PM	#11
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	If you have a triggerguard and a correctly functioning holster with nothing that protrudes into the triggerguard on holstering, just holster the gun. No need to over-think it, and good reason to KEEP YOUR FINGER OUT OF THE TRIGGERGUARD while you're holstering. If this is an obsession with you, you're probably right in not carrying anything. Denis

January 7, 2012, 03:48 PM	#13
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I must be living on the edge then, been using a Clipdraw for years.

January 7, 2012, 05:59 PM	#15
dajowi Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Posts: 1,196	Can of worms here. I've owned 1911s, DA autos, and DA revolvers. Shoulder rigs and IWB were the usual method of carry. I've shot pistols for over 40 years. I am a NRA certified RSO and never have had an accidental discharge. I've never felt "uncomfortably safe" with a firearm...until I purchased a Glock. The nominal 5 pound trigger pull seemed light to me even considering I generally shoot SA autos. After a couple of years and a slew of "improvements" including a Ten Ring Precision manual safety installation, I got rid of it. It was the one handgun which I wish I hadn't wasted my money on.

January 7, 2012, 06:08 PM	#16
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	If you are that worried about it, switch from your striker guns to hammer guns, like the LC9. Keep your thumb on the hammer as you holster, and you will immediately feel it if anything starts to snag or pull the trigger. The lack of tactile feedback, not the lack of "second strike" capability, is the main concern I have with striker types (though I do like my M&Ps). As others have said, finger in the trigger guard is a problem waiting to happen.

January 7, 2012, 06:18 PM	#17
Kimbertron Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2011 Location: Middle of nowhere Posts: 287	I carry a Ruger sp101 DAO and when I'm getting dressed I visually make sure there is nothing in the trigger guard as I am holstering. Biggest thing to me is just making sure you are not slamming the gum into the holster without much thought. I know the way some people carry they would not be able to see as they are holstering though but this method is what I am comfortable with.

January 7, 2012, 08:58 PM	#18
Dashunde Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Posts: 2,018	Perhaps I should explain a bit more... This is something I do mostly at the range while practicing draw and fire from 3-4 o'clock IWB cover with a jacket or shirt on and in the way. I cant see a thing back around there, its all feel. I believe that repeated drills like that pose a far greater trigger snag risk than me putting my finger on the back of the trigger (that I just fired) while reholstering for the next run. I expected the "sky is falling" crowd to uproar loudly at the idea of violating the sacred trigger guard, but the fact is I'm damn comfortable with the practice and will no way in hell be repeatedly re-holstering over and over without keeping track of that trigger.

January 7, 2012, 09:17 PM	#19
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Sounds like you need to get better cover garments. The finger in the trigger guard is still a bad idea.

January 8, 2012, 10:20 AM	#23
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Again, get a hammer fired DA or DAO. Thumb on back of the hammer: 1. Will detect any tendency for the hammer to be pushed rearward, allowing you to stop pushing down and to identify the problem; 2. Prevent the hammer from coming back far enough to actuate; 3. Enable you to prevent the slide from being pushed out of battery when holstering. (This is one reason why thumb on back of slide is recommended for most striker guns, too; frame mounted thumb safeties prevent rearward slide movement - except in cases like the FNX - but slide mounted do not, nor do decockers.) Your technique is unlikely to win any fans here. I have not met an instructor who has ever advocated it. I think you would be better off with a hammer fired auto, or a revolver.

January 8, 2012, 10:57 AM	#24
Dashunde Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Posts: 2,018	What DAO has a hammer and no manual safety? Like the LCP. On a side note, I sure do wish Ruger had made the LC9 simple, just like the LCP.

January 8, 2012, 11:06 AM	#25
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	LC9 SIG P239 or P22x DAK Beretta PX4 S&W 3rd Gen (used) Seecamp List goes on; not hard to find. Many common DA/SA guns have DAO siblings. In some cases, manufacturers offer conversion kits.