Rifle vs. Carbine

kflach · August 13, 2009, 10:42 AM

I've been looking at the Uberti web site at their 1873s. They list them as both rifles and as carbines. Best I can tell, the difference between a rifle and a carbine is that the carbine is shorter. Is that correct?

Is one better for CAS shooting than the other?

sundance44s · August 13, 2009, 11:24 AM

If you are going to shoot SASS make sure the carbine will hold 10 rounds .
Not a problem with a rifle ( longer barrel / longer mag tube )....the mag tube is shorter also on a carbine and some may not hold 10 in the mag.

Hawg · August 13, 2009, 12:42 PM

The carbine has a shorter barrel and a shorter LOP so it's quicker handling.

CraigC · August 13, 2009, 12:52 PM

Barrel length and/or chamberings are not determining factors, actually, they're mutually exclusive. Here's what I posted in another thread on the same subject.

It's the configuration that determines whether or not it's a rifle or carbine, not the cartridge it chambers. With leverguns, our most popular pistol cartridge long guns, there are certain features that differentiate rifles from carbines. Rifles tend to have crescent or shotgun-style buttplates. Carbines have their own style of buttplate. Rifles tend to have long forends with a forend cap. Carbines have forend bands. Rifles tend to have a longer (20" plus) octagon, half octagon or round barrel with a dovetailed magazine band. Carbines have shorter barrels, usually under 20" and are always round with a full barrel band to secure the magazine tube. Rifles can have either a straight, pistol grip or half pistol grip stock. Carbines are always straight.

Take two 20" Winchester 94's. Both chambered in .30WCF. One was made in 1901, has a crescent buttplate, straight grip buttstock, a 20" octagon barrel, a long forend with cap. That is a short-rifle. The other has a 20" round barrel, a shorter forend with forend band, a straight-grip buttstock and a carbine buttplate. That is a carbine. Same model, same chambering, same barrel length, same overall length, two different configurations. One is a rifle, the other a carbine. The chambering is immaterial. Make sense?

mykeal · August 13, 2009, 06:46 PM

Well, kinda.

I usually just go to a dictionary. From the Merriam Webster Online Dictionary:

Quote:

car·bine
* Pronunciation: \ˈkär-ˌbēn, -ˌbīn\
* Function: noun
* Etymology: French carabine, from Middle French carabin carabineer
* Date: 1592

1 : a short-barreled lightweight firearm originally used by cavalry
2 : a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm or for hunting in dense brush

Nothing about chambering, end caps/bands, buttstocks. Hmm.

How about Webster's New World College Dictionary:

Quote:

car·bine (kär′bīn′, -bēn′)

noun

1. a rifle with a short barrel, orig. for use by cavalry
2. a light, semiautomatic or automatic rifle of relatively limited range

Etymology: Fr carabine < carabin, mounted rifleman < OFr escarrabin, corpse bearer during the plague (lit., prob. “carrion beetle,” used as epithet for archers from Flanders) < scarabée: see scarab

Nope. Still no chambering, end caps/bands or buttstock shapes. Oh, well.

It's a whole lot harder to remember all that other stuff, so I'll just use short barrelled for now.

Wleoff · August 13, 2009, 08:43 PM

As Sundance said, just make sure that the magazine will hold ten rounds. You'll need ten rounds to clear a stage. I shoot 45 Colt, which requires about a 20" barrel for ten rounds. I've got a Marlin Trapper with 16" barrel which won't hold ten rounds.

I've been shooting SASS since the 90s and usually use rifles with 24" or 20" barrels. I do have a Uberti 1866 and a Winchester 1873 with 26" barrels, which I've used. The long barrels are a little harder to pull out of the scabbards on the hobby horses and to swing thru a stage window. As far as accuracy, the SASS targets are so close now, any length barrel will do.

Never thought about any of them being rifles or carbines.

Whip SASS #9662

CraigC · August 13, 2009, 11:37 PM

Yes, I'm sure Webster's researched all the in's and out's of Winchester leverguns in writing their definition for "carbine".

Quote:

It's a whole lot harder to remember all that other stuff...

Typical excuse. The devil is in the details and the details are what separate us from the uninitiated. Another example of where "you know what I mean" is good enough.

Model-P · August 14, 2009, 01:31 AM

I think Craig already said it has nothing to do with the chamberings, and mostly to do with the length. Glad to see the dictionary agrees. But, hey, for our purposes if a manufacturer specifies one product as a rifle and another a carbine, who's to argue that?

Just to muddy it up more, carbine barrels are rifled too!

Yes, kflach, carbines are generally shorter than the rifles.

kflach · August 14, 2009, 02:05 PM

Duh! I just got inspired and looked at Wikipedia. The article there starts, "The carbine was originally a lighter, shortened, rifled weapon developed for the cavalry, for whom a full-length musket or rifle was too heavy and awkward to fire from horseback."

The article is actually quite interesting as it compares the two. It can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine

Note that the article "does not cite any references or sources" so it's academic credentials are less than perfect.

Hawg · August 14, 2009, 04:29 PM

If you want to get technical about it Craig has it right.

This is an original Winchester 92 rifle, Not really a good pic but you can see there's no barrel band and there's a nose cap on the fore end. The mag tube is held with a dovetailed hanger

This is a repro Winchester 92 Carbine. It has a barrel band on the fore end and another on the front of the mag tube. The difference between an original carbine and this repro is the original had the front sight behind the barrel band, not part of it

mykeal · August 15, 2009, 06:36 AM

Nobody said Craig was incorrect. Just a little verbose, perhaps. Lexicographers base the definitions of words on several parameters, one of which is called the 'common usage'. Craig's tome (which has no references) might be fine for a scholarly journal, but the 'common usage', both historical and contemporary, says 'short barrel'. Period.

CraigC · August 15, 2009, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Best I can tell, the difference between a rifle and a carbine is that the carbine is shorter.

It is obvious from a picture of the guns in question that the barrel length is NOT the only difference. I don't really consider this a high level discussion but there are fine details involved. As anyone can see, there is more than just 1" of barrel length difference between the 19" carbine and the 20" short rifle.

Verbose? I gave a complete and correct answer to the question, you did not and were condescending in the process. Then again, if these details are not important to you, that explains a lot.

Here's an example of a short rifle, the 16" Trapper, with a shorter barrel than the 20" carbine variant.

Maybe I'm just the only one that cares enough to know the difference.

August 13, 2009, 10:42 AM	#1
kflach Registration in progress Join Date: July 15, 2009 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 99	Rifle vs. Carbine I've been looking at the Uberti web site at their 1873s. They list them as both rifles and as carbines. Best I can tell, the difference between a rifle and a carbine is that the carbine is shorter. Is that correct? Is one better for CAS shooting than the other?

August 13, 2009, 11:24 AM	#2
sundance44s Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2006 Location: Hernando , Ms. Posts: 579	If you are going to shoot SASS make sure the carbine will hold 10 rounds . Not a problem with a rifle ( longer barrel / longer mag tube )....the mag tube is shorter also on a carbine and some may not hold 10 in the mag.

August 13, 2009, 12:42 PM	#3
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	The carbine has a shorter barrel and a shorter LOP so it's quicker handling.

August 13, 2009, 12:52 PM	#4
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	Barrel length and/or chamberings are not determining factors, actually, they're mutually exclusive. Here's what I posted in another thread on the same subject. It's the configuration that determines whether or not it's a rifle or carbine, not the cartridge it chambers. With leverguns, our most popular pistol cartridge long guns, there are certain features that differentiate rifles from carbines. Rifles tend to have crescent or shotgun-style buttplates. Carbines have their own style of buttplate. Rifles tend to have long forends with a forend cap. Carbines have forend bands. Rifles tend to have a longer (20" plus) octagon, half octagon or round barrel with a dovetailed magazine band. Carbines have shorter barrels, usually under 20" and are always round with a full barrel band to secure the magazine tube. Rifles can have either a straight, pistol grip or half pistol grip stock. Carbines are always straight. Take two 20" Winchester 94's. Both chambered in .30WCF. One was made in 1901, has a crescent buttplate, straight grip buttstock, a 20" octagon barrel, a long forend with cap. That is a short-rifle. The other has a 20" round barrel, a shorter forend with forend band, a straight-grip buttstock and a carbine buttplate. That is a carbine. Same model, same chambering, same barrel length, same overall length, two different configurations. One is a rifle, the other a carbine. The chambering is immaterial. Make sense?

August 13, 2009, 08:43 PM	#6
Wleoff Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2008 Location: North AL Posts: 380	As Sundance said, just make sure that the magazine will hold ten rounds. You'll need ten rounds to clear a stage. I shoot 45 Colt, which requires about a 20" barrel for ten rounds. I've got a Marlin Trapper with 16" barrel which won't hold ten rounds. I've been shooting SASS since the 90s and usually use rifles with 24" or 20" barrels. I do have a Uberti 1866 and a Winchester 1873 with 26" barrels, which I've used. The long barrels are a little harder to pull out of the scabbards on the hobby horses and to swing thru a stage window. As far as accuracy, the SASS targets are so close now, any length barrel will do. Never thought about any of them being rifles or carbines. Whip SASS #9662

August 14, 2009, 01:31 AM	#8
Model-P Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2009 Posts: 727	I think Craig already said it has nothing to do with the chamberings, and mostly to do with the length. Glad to see the dictionary agrees. But, hey, for our purposes if a manufacturer specifies one product as a rifle and another a carbine, who's to argue that? Just to muddy it up more, carbine barrels are rifled too! Yes, kflach, carbines are generally shorter than the rifles.

August 14, 2009, 02:05 PM	#9
kflach Registration in progress Join Date: July 15, 2009 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 99	Duh! I just got inspired and looked at Wikipedia. The article there starts, "The carbine was originally a lighter, shortened, rifled weapon developed for the cavalry, for whom a full-length musket or rifle was too heavy and awkward to fire from horseback." The article is actually quite interesting as it compares the two. It can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine Note that the article "does not cite any references or sources" so it's academic credentials are less than perfect.

August 14, 2009, 04:29 PM	#10
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	If you want to get technical about it Craig has it right. This is an original Winchester 92 rifle, Not really a good pic but you can see there's no barrel band and there's a nose cap on the fore end. The mag tube is held with a dovetailed hanger This is a repro Winchester 92 Carbine. It has a barrel band on the fore end and another on the front of the mag tube. The difference between an original carbine and this repro is the original had the front sight behind the barrel band, not part of it

August 15, 2009, 06:36 AM	#11
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Nobody said Craig was incorrect. Just a little verbose, perhaps. Lexicographers base the definitions of words on several parameters, one of which is called the 'common usage'. Craig's tome (which has no references) might be fine for a scholarly journal, but the 'common usage', both historical and contemporary, says 'short barrel'. Period.