Lifetime License To Carry Question

NineInchNails · January 12, 2009, 03:57 PM

I just received my ‘lifetime license’ and have NOT yet laminated it. I recall paying $125.00 for this license so that 2 things NEVER EVER happen again:
#1 It can never expire. #2 I’ll never have to go through the BS of getting one ever again.

I read 100% of the literature thoroughly (all 1 pages of it) and the ONLY reference to a copy/duplicate is this phrase:
“THERE SHALL BE A CHARGE OF TWENTY DOLLARS ($20.00) FOR THE ISSUANCE OF A DUPLICATE LICENSE TO REPLACE A LOST OR DAMAGED LICENSE”.

I have pink paper that is a flawless color match 'and white' and access to an amazing copy machine/scanner and software. Couldn’t I simply make 20 copies, laminate them, place 1 in my wallet, 1 in each vehicle, 1 in all my gun cases, and the rest in a safe?

There are absolutely NO state seals, no security markings, or ANYTHING that would be considered as an ‘anti-counterfeiting’ mark/image. It’s just plain text on pink paper. It seems to me that the piece of paper is nowhere near as important as the information that is printed on it.

I even know a notary who will witness and notarize each copy if that would help.

What do ya think?

Glenn E. Meyer · January 12, 2009, 04:15 PM

1. What state?

2. Call up or e-mail the relevant authorities in that state and ask them about your scheme.

3. Who cares about we think - we ain't the law in your parts!

NineInchNails · January 12, 2009, 04:58 PM

Oh ... sorry about that. Indiana.

Scheme? What "scheme"? I'm merely asking if anyone happens to KNOW anything about carry licenses and the acceptance of a COPY. Sure one could simply pay $20.00 each, wait 10 weeks, and receive the same thing as a 'copy' on a pink piece of paper. I will modify the question for you. On a white or pink piece of paper, cut, and laminated for extended durability. In Indiana you receive a piece of pink paper that the info is printed on. The piece of paper recommends that you cut it out and laminate it yourself.

I would find an example/photo to demonstrate what I’m talking about, but I can’t find one online.

The only thing official of or on the license (to my knowledge) is the plain text info that is printed on them. The official #s, DOB, expiration, sex, hair, eye, hght, wght, address, etc… I am not defrauding anyone, counterfeiting anything ... I am just ASKING if making a photocopy is legitimate therefore NOT having to worry about losing it … etc … That is the whole point of a lifetime license … so you don’t have to worry about getting another til the day you die.

I figured perhaps LEOs would know at the very least because they ask for them, look at them, do whatever it is that they do with them, give them back, and go about their business.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 12, 2009, 05:11 PM

scheme /skim/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [skeem] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, verb, schemed, schem⋅ing.
–noun 1. a plan, design, or program of action to be followed; project.
2. an underhand plot; intrigue.

Definition 1 was my usage. And like I said - the official granting authorities would be the best bet to make this call.

jfrey123 · January 12, 2009, 06:00 PM

If for ever reason you get searched, I'd hate to see what they do to you for having a handful of forged government documents....

They might all look the same, but you are forging the permits. Yeah, they'd look identical, but it's still not the original.

Wagonman · January 12, 2009, 10:56 PM

If there is a id # for the LTC I am sure that it would come up on the computer check that wouldn't happen because you aren't going to tell the Police Officer.

Is it part of the requirement to actually produce the physical LTC? If not, see my first point. If so, pony up the jack if you lose it.

RevNate · January 13, 2009, 12:07 AM

Worst case scenario...
Your license is either stolen or lost and found by an individual with less than stellar morals. He uses it to fake his own ID with your info. You have since begun carrying one of your "replacements." Mr. Whatshisname is caught in a crime with your lost or stolen license.

"Hello, Mr.NIN, this is the PD. We have some questions.... what? you never reported it lost or stolen? So you don't have one now? Oh! You made copies! Good for you. Now, just how many of these "copies" have you passed on to other criminals? Oh you didn't make copies with the intent of placing them in the hands of criminals. Then, why do you have all those copies and why were we not notified that yours was potentially in the hands of a criminal? Would you mind coming to the PD to answer a few more questions?..."

Might sound way out there, but I think it would be worth $20 just to avoid the potential problems. I am almost willing to bet that if you dug deep enough, you would find that it would not be possible to do this without breaking some kind of law-- at least one that a Prosecutor could try and apply.

rwilson452 · January 13, 2009, 12:33 AM

Quote:

If for ever reason you get searched, I'd hate to see what they do to you for having a handful of forged government documents....

They might all look the same, but you are forging the permits. Yeah, they'd look identical, but it's still not the original.

I do believe he said they he would have them certified by a notary that they are true copies. this would not be a forgery.

Scattergun Bob · January 13, 2009, 12:34 AM

I guess the BIG question is your intent in coping your license.

If your intent is to defraud the government of the $20.00 for "THE ISSUANCE OF A DUPLICATE LICENSE TO REPLACE A LOST OR DAMAGED LICENSE". Then yes I think this would be a problem to the issuing authority.

If however, you are duplicating YOUR license as a convenience and in no way are you subverting the purpose of your states legislation then I would "think" that is within your purview as the licensee.

Glenn is very correct, your state of issuance is the authority that can direct you. I have several copies of both of my carry licenses, and by the way, if I lost one I would immediately report it to the issuing authority.

Good Luck & Be Safe

BillCA · January 13, 2009, 01:08 AM

For about $4.95 you can buy a stamp that says COPY on it and stamp your copies before laminating them.

So as a for instance...
You carry your laminated original in your wallet. Due to whatever circumstances, you left your wallet at work, home, etc. when you are stopped. You hand a laminated license to the officer which has COPY stamped on it in a way that does not obscure critical information.

He asks for the original and you explain that it is with your wallet at home/work/wife's car, etc. and you keep a copy just in case of this situation to avoid claims of carrying without a permit. The officer will check the permit's validity and if good, you should be okay.

armsmaster270 · January 13, 2009, 02:17 AM

Before copying the permit look at the printed lines on the form under at least a 10 power loupe or magnifying glass and a U/V light to make sure they aren't tamper resistant. Microprinting wil not duplicate on a scanner or printer

NineInchNails · January 13, 2009, 10:23 AM

Just to let you guys know ... my intent is not to create forgeries, counterfeits, or defraud anyone. Merely to keep the original in a safe place and keep a copy with me.

Quote:

jfrey123
If for ever reason you get searched, I'd hate to see what they do to you for having a handful of forged government documents....
They might all look the same, but you are forging the permits. Yeah, they'd look identical, but it's still not the original.

Like I said ... not a forgery. People make copies of their NFA papers all the time ... are those forgeries? Is it a crime to copy your birth certificate, your social security card, or your insurance card? Same deal here. It’s not a “permit” it’s a ‘license’. No one ‘permits’ us to (in the state of IN) to carry, it’s a right. Background checks are in place to ensure that we are not felons before our license is approved.

Quote:

RevNate:
Worst case scenario...
Your license is either stolen or lost and found by an individual with less than stellar morals. He uses it to fake his own ID with your info. You have since begun carrying one of your "replacements." Mr. Whatshisname is caught in a crime with your lost or stolen license.

"Hello, Mr.NIN, this is the PD. We have some questions.... what? you never reported it lost or stolen? So you don't have one now? Oh! You made copies! Good for you. Now, just how many of these "copies" have you passed on to other criminals? Oh you didn't make copies with the intent of placing them in the hands of criminals. Then, why do you have all those copies and why were we not notified that yours was potentially in the hands of a criminal? Would you mind coming to the PD to answer a few more questions?..."

Might sound way out there, but I think it would be worth $20 just to avoid the potential problems. I am almost willing to bet that if you dug deep enough, you would find that it would not be possible to do this without breaking some kind of law-- at least one that a Prosecutor could try and apply.

That ‘could’ be an anti-gun prosecutor’s agenda, but it’s a weak case. 'Intent' is impossible to prove unless the accused is a retard and confesses to something they never intended to do. I know better than to talk to any LEO or make any statement without representation. It’s just a copy.

Quote:

rwilson452
I do believe he said they he would have them certified by a notary that they are true copies. this would not be a forgery.

100% correct ... that clearly rules out 'intent'.

I just called the local police to see what they had to say about the "original". They said there is a law that states that the original license must be on our person. The police said all they need is the license # so they can look it up.

If I were to go to a gun show or gun shop to pick up a weapon ... I'd likely bring the original (even though it is NOT necessary) because those guys would get all paranoid (as observed here) out of ‘self preservation’. All FFL dealers need is the info, they call it in, and they report back with a GO, NO GO, or a WAIT. No one requires the original in the state of Indiana just as I assumed. It’s just plain text on pink paper.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 13, 2009, 10:58 AM

The local police aren't the state issuing authority. You will be surprised at local law officers not being up on legal nuances. The problem is trying to use the copy in some official interaction.

As Bob said - if you are trying to avoid the replacement fee mandated by the regulations (if you lose it), then that could be trouble.

Do us all a favor and call the appropriate state level authority and find out specifically if your proposed copy can be used to avoid the loss fee (if that is your goal). Ask also if it is legit to carry the copy instead of the original.

Then post that info. If you want to keep arguing that you don't want to do such, then I'll have to lock the thread.

NineInchNails · January 13, 2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Glenn E. Meyer
Do us all a favor and call the appropriate state level authority and find out specifically if your proposed copy can be used to avoid the loss fee (if that is your goal). Ask also if it is legit to carry the copy instead of the original.

Then post that info. If you want to keep arguing that you don't want to do such, then I'll have to lock the thread.

Ok ... I'll just have to quote the question again for ya:

Quote:

NineInchNails:
I'm merely asking if anyone happens to KNOW anything about carry licenses and the acceptance of a COPY

You guys sure are quick to lock a thread around here. Information is not always instantaneous ... if it were then there would be no point of a forum. I am not arguing with anyone. Is it against forum policy to disagree with someone … or just to disagree with a moderator? I did not refuse to contact any authorities so I don’t know why you would insinuate that I did.

I just phoned ‘Indiana State Police Firearms Licensing Section 317-233-5054’ also found at this link:
http://www.in.gov/isp/2359.htm

I asked them if I am speaking to the right person to answer my questions regarding making copies of my ‘Lifetime License To Carry Handgun’. The individual said “Yes”.

They said (exactly as I believed) the license has no official marking, seals, or “anti-counterfeiting” symbols visible or invisible.
They said the original license has no disclaimer saying “do not copy” therefore you can. They said the original offers no more legal protection or security that a copy does not provide. If for whatever reason it is asked of us to produce the original ‘we should’ (they said even though no law exists it would just be proper to do).
They said the information is what is required, not the original pink piece of paper.
It was recommended that I keep the original in a safe place, make copies, and keep them with my weapons or wherever I choose.
It was recommended to use PINK paper which is readily available. Pink paper thwarts ‘paranoia’ for those who are not in the know just as I assumed.
Lamination of the copies are recommended to preserve them.
It was recommended to also make a copy of my drivers license (which is not a crime) as this ‘may’ come in handy to thwart misidentification of the license to carry holder.
It was recommended to NOT carry the original as the original is the ONLY readily available source to COPY.
It is recommended to laminate the original, if desired, to preserve it to the best of your ability (to make future copies) so you don’t HAVE to pay $20.00 and wait for a pink piece of paper with information printed on it.
They said no law or mandate in the state of Indiana requiring that the original is on your person.

Al Norris · January 13, 2009, 01:17 PM

NineInchNails, you've now done the "due diligence" that was requested of you. You've also posted the information you obtained. Double-plus good.

That is all that Glenn asked of you. To berate him (or any other member of TFL) for asking you to do your own research is infantile.

What a member may KNOW is not the same as answering your question, if they cannot provide the source to back up their OPINION. You were asking for a legal opinion on Indiana law. The only way to answer that, outside of speculation, is to do the research.

You've just provided that research, posted the result, and now all Indiana residents can benefit.

johnwilliamson062 · January 13, 2009, 01:34 PM

When I read "Lifetime license to carry," I immediately thought, wow, can't I just carry a pocket copy of the constitution? Sometimes I dream a little.

NineInchNails · January 13, 2009, 01:34 PM

**Mike Irwin** · January 13, 2009, 01:36 PM

I'd tend to agree with the image.

Closed.

January 12, 2009, 05:11 PM	#4
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	scheme /skim/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [skeem] Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, schemed, schem⋅ing. –noun 1. a plan, design, or program of action to be followed; project. 2. an underhand plot; intrigue. Definition 1 was my usage. And like I said - the official granting authorities would be the best bet to make this call. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 12, 2009, 06:00 PM	#5
jfrey123 Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2006 Location: Reno, NV. Posts: 1,026	If for ever reason you get searched, I'd hate to see what they do to you for having a handful of forged government documents.... They might all look the same, but you are forging the permits. Yeah, they'd look identical, but it's still not the original. __________________ Rock out with your Glock out!

January 13, 2009, 12:07 AM	#7
RevNate Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 129	Worst case scenario... Your license is either stolen or lost and found by an individual with less than stellar morals. He uses it to fake his own ID with your info. You have since begun carrying one of your "replacements." Mr. Whatshisname is caught in a crime with your lost or stolen license. "Hello, Mr.NIN, this is the PD. We have some questions.... what? you never reported it lost or stolen? So you don't have one now? Oh! You made copies! Good for you. Now, just how many of these "copies" have you passed on to other criminals? Oh you didn't make copies with the intent of placing them in the hands of criminals. Then, why do you have all those copies and why were we not notified that yours was potentially in the hands of a criminal? Would you mind coming to the PD to answer a few more questions?..." Might sound way out there, but I think it would be worth $20 just to avoid the potential problems. I am almost willing to bet that if you dug deep enough, you would find that it would not be possible to do this without breaking some kind of law-- at least one that a Prosecutor could try and apply. __________________ NRA Life Member Arkansas Concealed Carry Association http://www.arkansascca.org Molon labe

January 13, 2009, 12:34 AM	#9
Scattergun Bob Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: Nine Mile Falls, Washington Posts: 1,186	NineInchNails I guess the BIG question is your intent in coping your license. If your intent is to defraud the government of the $20.00 for "THE ISSUANCE OF A DUPLICATE LICENSE TO REPLACE A LOST OR DAMAGED LICENSE". Then yes I think this would be a problem to the issuing authority. If however, you are duplicating YOUR license as a convenience and in no way are you subverting the purpose of your states legislation then I would "think" that is within your purview as the licensee. Glenn is very correct, your state of issuance is the authority that can direct you. I have several copies of both of my carry licenses, and by the way, if I lost one I would immediately report it to the issuing authority. Good Luck & Be Safe __________________ First, with the most, WINS! Regards, Scattergun Bob

January 13, 2009, 01:08 AM	#10
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	For about $4.95 you can buy a stamp that says COPY on it and stamp your copies before laminating them. So as a for instance... You carry your laminated original in your wallet. Due to whatever circumstances, you left your wallet at work, home, etc. when you are stopped. You hand a laminated license to the officer which has COPY stamped on it in a way that does not obscure critical information. He asks for the original and you explain that it is with your wallet at home/work/wife's car, etc. and you keep a copy just in case of this situation to avoid claims of carrying without a permit. The officer will check the permit's validity and if good, you should be okay. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

January 12, 2009, 03:57 PM	#1
NineInchNails Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2008 Posts: 120	Lifetime License To Carry Question I just received my ‘lifetime license’ and have NOT yet laminated it. I recall paying $125.00 for this license so that 2 things NEVER EVER happen again: #1 It can never expire. #2 I’ll never have to go through the BS of getting one ever again. I read 100% of the literature thoroughly (all 1 pages of it) and the ONLY reference to a copy/duplicate is this phrase: “THERE SHALL BE A CHARGE OF TWENTY DOLLARS ($20.00) FOR THE ISSUANCE OF A DUPLICATE LICENSE TO REPLACE A LOST OR DAMAGED LICENSE”. I have pink paper that is a flawless color match 'and white' and access to an amazing copy machine/scanner and software. Couldn’t I simply make 20 copies, laminate them, place 1 in my wallet, 1 in each vehicle, 1 in all my gun cases, and the rest in a safe? There are absolutely NO state seals, no security markings, or ANYTHING that would be considered as an ‘anti-counterfeiting’ mark/image. It’s just plain text on pink paper. It seems to me that the piece of paper is nowhere near as important as the information that is printed on it. I even know a notary who will witness and notarize each copy if that would help. What do ya think? Last edited by NineInchNails; January 12, 2009 at 05:00 PM. Reason: adding the words "and white paper"

January 12, 2009, 04:15 PM	#2
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	1. What state? 2. Call up or e-mail the relevant authorities in that state and ask them about your scheme. 3. Who cares about we think - we ain't the law in your parts! __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 12, 2009, 04:58 PM	#3
NineInchNails Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2008 Posts: 120	Oh ... sorry about that. Indiana. Scheme? What "scheme"? I'm merely asking if anyone happens to KNOW anything about carry licenses and the acceptance of a COPY. Sure one could simply pay $20.00 each, wait 10 weeks, and receive the same thing as a 'copy' on a pink piece of paper. I will modify the question for you. On a white or pink piece of paper, cut, and laminated for extended durability. In Indiana you receive a piece of pink paper that the info is printed on. The piece of paper recommends that you cut it out and laminate it yourself. I would find an example/photo to demonstrate what I’m talking about, but I can’t find one online. The only thing official of or on the license (to my knowledge) is the plain text info that is printed on them. The official #s, DOB, expiration, sex, hair, eye, hght, wght, address, etc… I am not defrauding anyone, counterfeiting anything ... I am just ASKING if making a photocopy is legitimate therefore NOT having to worry about losing it … etc … That is the whole point of a lifetime license … so you don’t have to worry about getting another til the day you die. I figured perhaps LEOs would know at the very least because they ask for them, look at them, do whatever it is that they do with them, give them back, and go about their business.

January 12, 2009, 10:56 PM	#6
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	If there is a id # for the LTC I am sure that it would come up on the computer check that wouldn't happen because you aren't going to tell the Police Officer. Is it part of the requirement to actually produce the physical LTC? If not, see my first point. If so, pony up the jack if you lose it.

January 13, 2009, 02:17 AM	#11
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	Before copying the permit look at the printed lines on the form under at least a 10 power loupe or magnifying glass and a U/V light to make sure they aren't tamper resistant. Microprinting wil not duplicate on a scanner or printer __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

January 13, 2009, 10:58 AM	#13
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	The local police aren't the state issuing authority. You will be surprised at local law officers not being up on legal nuances. The problem is trying to use the copy in some official interaction. As Bob said - if you are trying to avoid the replacement fee mandated by the regulations (if you lose it), then that could be trouble. Do us all a favor and call the appropriate state level authority and find out specifically if your proposed copy can be used to avoid the loss fee (if that is your goal). Ask also if it is legit to carry the copy instead of the original. Then post that info. If you want to keep arguing that you don't want to do such, then I'll have to lock the thread. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 13, 2009, 01:17 PM	#15
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	NineInchNails, you've now done the "due diligence" that was requested of you. You've also posted the information you obtained. Double-plus good. That is all that Glenn asked of you. To berate him (or any other member of TFL) for asking you to do your own research is infantile. What a member may KNOW is not the same as answering your question, if they cannot provide the source to back up their OPINION. You were asking for a legal opinion on Indiana law. The only way to answer that, outside of speculation, is to do the research. You've just provided that research, posted the result, and now all Indiana residents can benefit.

January 13, 2009, 01:34 PM	#16
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	When I read "Lifetime license to carry," I immediately thought, wow, can't I just carry a pocket copy of the constitution? Sometimes I dream a little.

January 13, 2009, 01:36 PM	#18
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	I'd tend to agree with the image. Closed.

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