ATF Project Gunrunner - Page 49

**Tom Servo** · October 2, 2011, 06:46 PM

I just...I mean, that's a lot of red lines. Red isn't usually used to denote happy things.

Somehow, I don't think those represent rays of happy sunshine and unicorn tails moving over the border.

alloy · October 2, 2011, 07:18 PM

Looking at that map makes it pretty obvious that the problem is Arizona.
Anywhere to vacation in Coahuila?

graysmoke · October 2, 2011, 07:37 PM

Ironic how the mainstream multi-media has been so Hush Hush about the entire Fast and Furious disaster ordeal.

publius42 · October 3, 2011, 06:57 AM

The letter from the White House accompanying the latest released emails on ATF gunwalking said this:

Quote:

Within the timeframe noted above, there are additional communications between Mr. O'Reilly and Mr. Restrepo and/or Mr. Gatjanis, which forward certain of Mr. Newell's emails. These internal NSS emails are not included in the enclosed documents because the [Executive Office of the President] has significant confidentiality interests in its internal communications.

Yeah? Well, the citizens who pay for all this reasonable gun control have a significant interest in finding out who in the White House knew about the criminality our ATF agents were being told to allow.

A previous LA Times article said:

Quote:

The White House has said that O'Reilly forwarded the emails to two other White House officials – Dan Restrepo, special assistant to the president and senior director for Western Hemisphere Affairs on the NSC, and Greg Gatjanis, director for Terrorist Finance and Counternarcotics, Counterterrorism Policy, also on the NSC.

Those job titles make Restrepo and Gatjanis sound like the kind of guys who should know little details like the ATF throwing away the rule book for Fast and Furious and the cartel "buyer" being an FBI informant, and maybe even share those details with the Attorney General and the President. If that is not their job, what is? And whose job would that be, if not theirs?

thallub · October 3, 2011, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Ironic how the mainstream multi-media has been so Hush Hush about the entire Fast and Furious disaster ordeal.

It's also ironic that the vast majority of US congressmen/women are silent on Fast and Furious. So far as i can determine; fewer than ten US congressmen have spoken out in opposition to Fast and Furious. Few, if any, of the presidential candidates have even mentioned Fast and Furious.

If millions of Second Amendment supporters pestered their congress critters this would change.

ltc444 · October 3, 2011, 08:06 AM

TO Alloy

The problem is not AZ. The problem is a corrupt out of control White House and Federal "Law Enforcement Agency".

If the problem were the AZ gun dealers there would be multiple prosecutions of the dealers who knowling sold guns illegally.

I personnally know gun dealers who refused to participate in the program.

The ATF has a history of being maniplated by activist Politicians. Waco and Ruby Ridge are the most well known examples.

Why is a local ATF Office chief sending his weekly reports to the NSC if their is not direct oversite by the White House?

This whole mess is designed to justify increased control and the eventual removal of our 2 A rights.

alloy · October 3, 2011, 02:26 PM

Do you believe, in the midst of a 50 page discussion about the ATF giving guns to killers, that anyone could attribute the problem to The State of Arizona?
My bad then....less vermouth in the sarcasm next time....thanks!

Actually, I think the gov might see it that way.

**44 AMP** · October 3, 2011, 08:36 PM

On Mark Levin show; Fox news has posession of at least two documents that say Holder was both aware, and briefed on Fast and Furious (in 2010), something he publically denied earlier this year.

This appears to make his statement (as Cmmdr Clement would say) "what we in the Royal Navy, call a lie!"

Now where is it going to go from here, particularly with the mainstream press much more concerned with what was painted on a rock than with matters of law and the death of Federal agenst because of it.

alloy · October 3, 2011, 09:13 PM

Bret Baier mentioned it this evening on his FOX news show.
Read some of the briefing for Holder mentioning 1500 straw purchases.
As to be expected...the DOJ claims Holder doesn't read everything sent to him. Interesting video. Nearly some kind of smoking gun.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...-than-claimed/

jmortimer · October 4, 2011, 08:30 AM

Most of us knew from day one that this idiotic "plan" went right to the top. Field agents would not force gun stores to sell AKs to criminals unless Holder/obama knew about it. In the words of a friend of POTUS - America's chickens have come home to roost.

Hardcase · October 4, 2011, 09:03 AM

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...-10391695.html

Either Eric Holder is an utter idiot or else he's a liar. Or maybe both, I don't know. But I don't see how it's possible to make these sorts of statements with a straight face:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBS News

On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBS News

And tonight they tell CBS News, Holder misunderstood that question from the committee - he did know about Fast and Furious - just not the details.

Bartholomew Roberts · October 4, 2011, 10:17 AM

Listen to this email dated October 18, 2010, from Jason Weinstein (Deputy Assistant Attorney General of DOJ's Criminal Division) to James Trusty (Deputy Chief of DOJ's National Gang Unit):

JW: "It's a tricky case given the number of guns that have walked but is a significant set of prosecutions."

JT: ""I'm not sure how much grief we get for 'guns walking.' It may be more like, "Finally they're going after people who sent guns down there."

The same email also states that there is Fast and Furious, a Tuscon case and a new unspecified case related to both. So we have high level DOJ officials discussing both guns walking and at least three separate cases of it. And the kicker is that DOJ's defense of this email (see Hardcase link above) is that it is not about Fast and Furious but another earlier case. I don't know who answers the press questions at DOJ; but "That email is talking about guns walked from an earlier and completely different case than Fast and Furious" is probably not the scandal extinguisher you thought it was.

So we've got high level DOJ officials talking about gun walking and indicating that there are at minimum three operations related to Fast and Furious (including F&F). I can't believe that this isn't getting more coverage.

scpapa · October 4, 2011, 10:48 AM

I'm of the mind set that the Dems are quiet, hoping it will go away and the Repubs are quiet, waiting for the "right" time to drag it out on the campaign trail.

Rick

jimpeel · October 4, 2011, 12:44 PM

Here are the new documents in .pdf format complete with huge black block redacting.

If you need Adobe Reader you can download it free at http://get.adobe.com/reader/

Read the new documents

Read the July 5, 2010 memo

Read the "It's a tricky case" email

Read the memo to AG Holder from Asst. AG Lanny A. Breuer

rantingredneck · October 4, 2011, 01:15 PM

So there were 2 separate "Gun Walker" operations out of AZ, one from Tucson and one from Pheonix. A separate operation in TX, referenced in one of the emails released Friday. An operation run out of Florida that supposedly supplied arms to Honduras "Operation Castaway?" and yet another operation run out of Indiana(?) that supposedly supplied inner city gangs?

Jeesh.............

I think this graphic sums up the AZ operations nicely:

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/FF_p93_chart.pdf

and as I said on another forum yesterday, if that ^ was a legitimate LE operation I'll eat my hat!

Bartholomew Roberts · October 4, 2011, 01:20 PM

In a related story, Laura Ingraham has a really interesting interview with CBS News reporter Sharyl Attkisson, who was one of the first mainstream media reporters to actually investigate Fast and Furious and has been one of the few to stay with it and keep reporting.

Apparently, they are all out of honey at the White House...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharyl Attkisson

Well the DOJ woman (Tracy Schmaler) was just yelling at me. The guy from the White House (Eric Schultz) on Friday night literally screamed at me and cussed at me... ...They will tell you that I'm the only reporter--as they told me--that is not reasonable. They say the Washington Post is reasonable, the LA Times is reasonable, the New York Times is reasonable, I'm the only one who thinks this is a story, and they think I'm unfair and biased by pursuing it.

So if you get a chance, you might drop CBS News a line and let them know that you think Sharyl Attkisson is quite reasonable in pursuing the story. I am sure CBS is getting pressure to axe her coverage. And just in case you hadn't already realized who the "reasonable" folks were, there is a good list above.

**Tom Servo** · October 4, 2011, 01:40 PM

I love Ms. Ingraham's closing bit:

Quote:

If you're getting screamed at by people in the White House, you're turning over the right rocks.

Onward Allusion · October 4, 2011, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBS News
On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBS News
And tonight they tell CBS News, Holder misunderstood that question from the committee - he did know about Fast and Furious - just not the details.

Um, don't they normally throw people in prison for that kind of thing??? Or is it ok to lie to a House Judiciary Committee?

Patriot86 · October 4, 2011, 02:13 PM

Lieing to congress...."That depends on what the definition of the word is, is"

Need I say more?

Unless the president decides Holder is a liability and throws him under the bus I do not see this going very far.

Bartholomew Roberts · October 4, 2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Um, don't they normally throw people in prison for that kind of thing??? Or is it ok to lie to a House Judiciary Committee?

Rep. Lamar Smith of Texas has written a formal request to the White House asking that they appoint a special prosecutor to determine whether AG Holder perjured himself in testimony before Congress. Source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...r-on-fast-and/

My guess is that the emails and other documents you have seen lately are just prepping the battlefield for the fight to get Obama to appoint a special prosecutor. Although given that the White House staff has taken to yelling and cussing at reporters, I would say that the initial pressure appears to be having the desired effect.

Don P · October 4, 2011, 03:55 PM

Quote:

the DOJ claims Holder doesn't read everything sent to him.

I personally don't think that any of the 536 idiots in DC can read let alone the staff that the commander in chief has selected to be at his side. My goodness there has to be one hell of a mound in the carpet that they continue to sweep things under about the size of Mt. Everest.

KyJim · October 4, 2011, 05:17 PM

I think this is one of the bigger news days when it comes to Fast and Furious. The first actual call by a member of Congress (to my knowledge) for a special prosecutor, white house staff "losing it" with a reporter over the issue, and proof Holder was less than accurate in his previous testimony to Congress. WHEW!!

Skadoosh · October 4, 2011, 05:29 PM

The fact that CBS News is reporting this is very significant.

alloy · October 4, 2011, 05:48 PM

Karmic justice that the very guns they wanted to secretly eliminate, are now coming back to haunt, and set public opinion...against them.
Nate Beeler for The Washington Examiner nailed it months ago.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/...9/stonewalling

Bartholomew Roberts · October 4, 2011, 07:04 PM

And Lamar Smith isn't just any member of Congress, he is Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. He has significant power over the DOJ's budget should the Administration play hardball.

October 2, 2011, 06:46 PM	#1201
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	I just...I mean, that's a lot of red lines. Red isn't usually used to denote happy things. Somehow, I don't think those represent rays of happy sunshine and unicorn tails moving over the border. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

October 2, 2011, 07:37 PM	#1203
graysmoke Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2011 Location: Tennessee Posts: 378	Ironic how the mainstream multi-media has been so Hush Hush about the entire Fast and Furious disaster ordeal. __________________ "Keep your powder dry, and eyes on the target". -R. Lee Ermey

October 3, 2011, 08:36 PM	#1208
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,791	Heard on the radio on the drive home today On Mark Levin show; Fox news has posession of at least two documents that say Holder was both aware, and briefed on Fast and Furious (in 2010), something he publically denied earlier this year. This appears to make his statement (as Cmmdr Clement would say) "what we in the Royal Navy, call a lie!" Now where is it going to go from here, particularly with the mainstream press much more concerned with what was painted on a rock than with matters of law and the death of Federal agenst because of it. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

October 4, 2011, 12:44 PM	#1214
jimpeel Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: Longmont, CO, USA Posts: 4,530	Here are the new documents in .pdf format complete with huge black block redacting. If you need Adobe Reader you can download it free at http://get.adobe.com/reader/ Read the new documents Read the July 5, 2010 memo Read the "It's a tricky case" email Read the memo to AG Holder from Asst. AG Lanny A. Breuer __________________ Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

October 4, 2011, 01:15 PM	#1215
rantingredneck Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,728	So there were 2 separate "Gun Walker" operations out of AZ, one from Tucson and one from Pheonix. A separate operation in TX, referenced in one of the emails released Friday. An operation run out of Florida that supposedly supplied arms to Honduras "Operation Castaway?" and yet another operation run out of Indiana(?) that supposedly supplied inner city gangs? Jeesh............. I think this graphic sums up the AZ operations nicely: http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/FF_p93_chart.pdf and as I said on another forum yesterday, if that ^ was a legitimate LE operation I'll eat my hat! __________________ NRA Member NC Hunter's Education Instructor PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)

October 3, 2011, 08:06 AM	#1206
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	TO Alloy The problem is not AZ. The problem is a corrupt out of control White House and Federal "Law Enforcement Agency". If the problem were the AZ gun dealers there would be multiple prosecutions of the dealers who knowling sold guns illegally. I personnally know gun dealers who refused to participate in the program. The ATF has a history of being maniplated by activist Politicians. Waco and Ruby Ridge are the most well known examples. Why is a local ATF Office chief sending his weekly reports to the NSC if their is not direct oversite by the White House? This whole mess is designed to justify increased control and the eventual removal of our 2 A rights.

October 4, 2011, 08:30 AM	#1210
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	Most of us knew from day one that this idiotic "plan" went right to the top. Field agents would not force gun stores to sell AKs to criminals unless Holder/obama knew about it. In the words of a friend of POTUS - America's chickens have come home to roost.

October 4, 2011, 10:17 AM	#1212
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Listen to this email dated October 18, 2010, from Jason Weinstein (Deputy Assistant Attorney General of DOJ's Criminal Division) to James Trusty (Deputy Chief of DOJ's National Gang Unit): JW: "It's a tricky case given the number of guns that have walked but is a significant set of prosecutions." JT: ""I'm not sure how much grief we get for 'guns walking.' It may be more like, "Finally they're going after people who sent guns down there." The same email also states that there is Fast and Furious, a Tuscon case and a new unspecified case related to both. So we have high level DOJ officials discussing both guns walking and at least three separate cases of it. And the kicker is that DOJ's defense of this email (see Hardcase link above) is that it is not about Fast and Furious but another earlier case. I don't know who answers the press questions at DOJ; but "That email is talking about guns walked from an earlier and completely different case than Fast and Furious" is probably not the scandal extinguisher you thought it was. So we've got high level DOJ officials talking about gun walking and indicating that there are at minimum three operations related to Fast and Furious (including F&F). I can't believe that this isn't getting more coverage.

October 4, 2011, 10:48 AM	#1213
scpapa Member Join Date: December 23, 2007 Location: Central South Carolina Posts: 89	I'm of the mind set that the Dems are quiet, hoping it will go away and the Repubs are quiet, waiting for the "right" time to drag it out on the campaign trail. Rick

October 4, 2011, 02:13 PM	#1219
Patriot86 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,293	Lieing to congress...."That depends on what the definition of the word is, is" Need I say more? Unless the president decides Holder is a liability and throws him under the bus I do not see this going very far.

October 4, 2011, 05:17 PM	#1222
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	I think this is one of the bigger news days when it comes to Fast and Furious. The first actual call by a member of Congress (to my knowledge) for a special prosecutor, white house staff "losing it" with a reporter over the issue, and proof Holder was less than accurate in his previous testimony to Congress. WHEW!!

October 4, 2011, 05:29 PM	#1223
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	The fact that CBS News is reporting this is very significant.

October 4, 2011, 07:04 PM	#1225
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	And Lamar Smith isn't just any member of Congress, he is Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. He has significant power over the DOJ's budget should the Administration play hardball.

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