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Old November 4, 2000, 12:32 AM   #1
dragontooth73
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I'm one of the gentlest guys I know. I put moths and spiders in glass jars and let them loose outside rather than kill them. I shed tears over all kinds of movies, am a sucker for donations to charities, and basically let people walk all over me on a daily basis. Being raised strictly Asian in the midst of a Western-oriented society, people tend to mistake my politeness for a complete lack of backbone, and tend to walk on me.

At my workplace I had a run-in today with a racist employee (black) who made a number of severe epithets in public. The matter was taken up by a manager (white) who took the view I was at fault even though the entire scene was witnessed by about 20 people who sided with me throughout the whole episode.

Just as I was about to go home the employee made it a point to seek me out and crank up the abuse. The body language got to the point where I knew it was just about to go physical. The thing is, I felt no fear. I just had a massive weight of exasperation on me. I was prepared if need be to dole out a rapid elbow strike and do a clean push takedown, followed by repeated stomping. Instead I just let the harangue continue til the culprit was taken away.

The thing is tonight while I was walking back to where I live in Chicago, I thought about home (Honolulu) and also about my good ol' Aikido dojo in Tokyo. I thought about all the good people there, all the wonderful people who taught me and learned with me, and how that wonderful, serene environment didn't prepare me one bit to beat down someone who would had no compunction about taking me down.

Maybe I should have gone to Shoot Wrestling or something like Krav Maga. I do know that I chose Aikido because I wanted to find peace, not learn how to be a killer like my uncles. Maybe I was wrong, but as I type this in Chicago all I'm doing is missing home and the good ol' ohana (family) back in Hawai'i I never knew the mainland could be so cold.

I'm also thinking, if this is what LEOs do every day - get spat on and just have to take it - then I think I understand that better. My respect goes out to these people. Maybe I should change and become harder. Learn a much more combative martial art. Learn how to be brutal in the face of thuggery. Adjust for conditions, I guess. And all I want to do is see the beach again

Sorry about the rant. What do you guys think?
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Old November 4, 2000, 12:53 AM   #2
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I think you posses self discipline, restraint and honor. Three things your tormentor will never know nor understand.
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Old November 4, 2000, 01:44 AM   #3
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Well, bugs die when they enter my house but I have been known to catch and release walking sticks and such.
Let's see...
You showed yourself to be a gentleman in the face of a boor. You refused to lower yourself to his level. You exercised restraint when you knew that you could have defeated him physically. You followed your personal code of conduct and thus acted with honor.
He attacked you verbally and attempted to provoke you.He, by his actions and words, showed himself to be a dishonorable man.
Therefore,his words against you are meaningless unless you allow them to have meaning. Changing your philosophy because of this incident allows him to "win" because he has affected you. Deny him any semblance of victory. If you decide to change ... let the decision come from close introspection - not because a schoolyard bully pushed you into it.
Often, it takes more courage to exercise restraint than to do what you really want to do (bashing the skull of one of those guys can be fun).
I'm not telling you anything you don't know. Maybe you just need to hear that you're a good man. It sounds like you are.
If he decides to get physical, I'm sure you can defend yourself without violating your convictions......and there's nothing wrong with enjoying it.
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Old November 4, 2000, 02:26 AM   #4
George Hill
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Dito Gunslingers post.
Your a good man.
The aggressor is a child.
Dont waste your energies on infants.
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Old November 4, 2000, 08:47 AM   #5
dragontooth73
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Thank you. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was trying to troll for sympathy with mile-wide nets. I really did get struck with the notion on how to approach incidents like what happened last night. I know George Hill had that incident where his sweet Momma in law was harrassed by the cops. I pray that is resolved so justice prevails.

Truth of the matter is, I know what to do when it gets physical. It can be "fun" really, inasmuch it's a bloodrush. Not that I feel good about it. After every serious physical confrontation - and I don't have that many, maybe one or two a year on average go down to the wire without me being able to defuse it in time - I don't feel I was living up to the principles of harmony I've really come to love.

The problem for me is, not when it gets physical - but right before, when it gets hostile. When people confront you with terminal BS that doesn't hold a drop of weight, what to do? Divorce yourself from what they're saying - as in not listen at all - and concentrate on preparing for immediate physical violence? Treat them as human beings, get sucked into the their rant and then get very, very tired trying to deal with it on a verbal level?

Maybe it would have been nicer to just stay as a Type-A aggressive personality. I think it comes down to

(1) Talk - Try to reason
(2) Talk - Shout them down
(3) Keep quiet - Present solid defense
(4) Keep quiet - Walk away asap

What I did is (1) first, then (3). I have trouble with people who tell me "ignore them" or "walk away" when involved in things like this. I learned real, real fast that the advice my parents and teachers gave me on how to deal with bullies and racists was a lie. Just gave them more incentive to come up and stab you. Literally, as I found very young (with pencils, then it escalates bit by bit.)

Anyways, I'm here to ask, what's the mindset to deal with people like that? Any links on how LEOs handle incidents where they can't draw, they can't use the pepper spray or the ASP baton, but just have to stand there and take it? Is there a something to it I should know by now?

Thank you for the comments. Really.
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Old November 4, 2000, 12:23 PM   #6
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Try to avoid the racist, maybe he will lose interest (never worked for me). If these actions continue, arguing will not help. Walking away will not help. Nicely provoke the moron into acting stupid and then beat him until you see that he is broken. A good butt kicking is all a lot of these guys understand. If your supervisor is too weak to stand up to this guy, go over his head. That way you will show that you tried to resolve the situation the right way before you had to defend yourself.You do not have to stand there and be attacked.

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Old November 4, 2000, 10:02 PM   #7
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You can only speak truth to those who will hear it.

"Cast not your pearls before swine."

If you know he will not hear your truth, steadfastly and calmly gaze just between and above his eyes until he falls quiet and walks away, or decides he no longer needs this job and attacks you.

He is human, but had decided to make violence (verbal violence is still violence) his way, and is thus beneath you. Give him no reasonable cause for excitation, keep your spine straight, and give him as little concern as possible. And be happy.
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Old November 5, 2000, 10:01 AM   #8
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I dont know your age or your abilitys so this might be useless....
While what you did is acceptable, it appears to have raised doubt within you with that type of response, why? Did you feel that by taking the abuse from this indiviual you were being fair?...continue your reevaluation, its a lifetime of changes.
Politeness like civility is a luxury that you cannot always afford when dealing with aggressors---they see weakness.
You've made comments many times of your "killer" relatives, well they arent you. Walking around thinking that you can handle yourself because your related to someone one dosent work.
Unfortunately we are in a country today were old values are reversed in some peoples minds......fighting for what you believed was once looked upon as a gauge of self respect, and martial courage. The reality now is, depending upon your job and situation, you not only could lose your job, you most likely will have an assault charge to deal with. Oh yeah, plus you could get your but whipped.....remember fights anymore seem to escalate to shooting. Fighting at work should be avoided unless it cannot be.....document every incident with this person including witnesses times and dates, include conversation's you have with the supervision. keep originals.
Prepare like you are fighting for your survival......If your the new guy there he apparently feels threatened, your going to have to watch your back,,,,,and that is not a harmonous way of being.
Use what ever agency's can work for you to your advantage......E.E.O. complaints are a pain in the butt for some employers, especially the charges of allowing for a hostile workplace in the face of racism.
Ive done a lot of moving and starting in new places myself......its always rough. No familiar support, few if any friends, usually a job that is supposed to be temporary. What you did was correct, but sometimes you just want to kick their butt because they show no respect....and most likely they never will.....if this guy persists in his aggression, be prepared, even if you dont have the latest and greatest martial art available to you, you have your mind, use it...remember Sun Tzu and his principles, apply them to your daily life.....win the fight before it is engaged.....fubsy.

[This message has been edited by fubsy (edited November 05, 2000).]
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Old November 5, 2000, 02:31 PM   #9
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fubsy, i didn't by any means imply that i was either of my uncles. my point - and i think it is made succintly enough - is that i do NOT want to emulate either of those role models. i do not entertain any notions of being something like they are. they grew up under war since childhood. my dad's family under B-29 incendiary raids, my mom's family under refugee columns and strafing attacks. i did not. hopefully this is clear enough.
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Old November 5, 2000, 03:06 PM   #10
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Uhhh, you chose not to engage a MORON!

Thus, you chose not to ESCALATE!

Yeah, I know from many personal experiences the deflated thoughts of "I coulda said XYZ." But in this age of bass-ackwards consequences for giving people the lickin' they deserve (a few lumps and a bloody nose, no further force applied), your restraint, sadly, goes beyond uncommon grace under pressure: it is pretty much an unfair demand from the "zero tolerance" bigots.

You did well. Let the idiots think you're a wuss. Be enough at peace to let them be wrong, and "wise as serpents" so they LOSE whenever they make the mistake of going physical.
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Old November 5, 2000, 03:29 PM   #11
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I understand that your not and that is clear, but in trying to not be them, perhaps you are taking it to far in the opposite direction.....only you know...fubsy.
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Old November 5, 2000, 03:48 PM   #12
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"Only someone who has mastered violence can truly choose to be non-violent."

You were completely peaceful and non-violent. Had violence begun, you would have acted swiftly and efficiently to restore peace and resume your non-violent stance.

Excellent show.
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Old November 5, 2000, 05:15 PM   #13
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Dragontooth, I admire your self discipline and restraint in dealing with a difficult situation. Some people are ignorant (uneducated), some are stupid (can't do much about them).
FWIW, I'd try to work it out in a mature and professional manner (you need to be on record for doing the right thing), if that is not to be, kick his @$$ with a clear conscience, making sure, of course, that there were plenty of witnesses to the fact that he was the aggressor and started.

BTW, I lived in Windy for five years (winters suck), its a great town with a lot of fine folks, but it reflects the populatin at large, so there's a certain % everywhere that is badly in need of proctological adjustment. It's neither your fault or your problem, think warm thoughts and blue waters, and enjoy the good parts. M2
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Old November 5, 2000, 07:26 PM   #14
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Dragontooth, you are a perfect candidate for Muay Thai. There is a number of reasons ; One, its fun. Two, it teaches you how to attack stand up fighting better than ANY other martial art. Three, it allows you to get out your agression in a safe enviroment rather than doling it out on some ******* employees. Four, who needs four ?

Don't sweat the jackass at work, odds are he'll be fired soon enough, however, don't get yourself fired reacting irrationally. Your manager on the other hand , it should be made clear to him that you need his support in the future, if his response is negative, I would start looking for another job.
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Old November 5, 2000, 10:08 PM   #15
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Well, to clarify ... I don't think I will ever mention my family again. If there's anything I don't like it's to put down a garbled account of my life ... I should know people extrapolate; it's my fault entirely that I didn't keep this down and not write about it.

Work-wise, I got headhunted by a much better company so that's that. The racist in question keeps a respectful distance. It's pretty much evident on the floor that if I am physically threatened, then I will reciprocate with more than generous interest. I go about my business.

fubsy, thank you for the bucket of cold water. Now I didn't ask for a shot of that and I'm sure you didn't mean to dish it out that way, so indulge me here while I explain myself, since I didn't get to finish my last post in full.

My family is essentially split into two generations: the postwar (me and all my cousins) and the wartime (my parents, uncles, aunts, and everyone above.) The postwar numbers, for both sides of the family, less than 2 dozen, including our children (I have none; they belong to my cousins.) We literally have hundreds of dead. Not dozens. Hundreds. Ours is a very small family by most Asian standards.

The result of this was to harden my parents, and their siblings, into very tough, tough, people. One of my paternal uncles chose to go into the triads because that was the only way he could attain respect. One of my maternal uncles hated the communists so much (his grandfather, my great-grandfather was lynched by a mob. In front of my grandmother. I omit details.) that he joined first the ROK military, and then the served under the US in Vietnam. These two uncles, whom I love very much still, ended up, despite their success, with sad, sad lives. I know I will never be them. I don't try to emulate. They were born during wartime, lived under artillery bombardments and refugee columns. They're way tougher than I or my cousins. Lived through so much more suffering. That's how they wanted it.

The admonishment they left to me and my cousins was to

(1) Not to fight whenever possible
(2) Forget about revenge
(3) Study hard and live a good life

Needless to say, us postwar generation took this all to heart. Despite the hardships, our parents relocated us to Europe, Hawaii, all over the world. Away from the communists as possible. So please understand that when I agonize over whether to kick butt, it's not so much a personal issue as trying to respect the wishes of the family. I mean as a kid I got BEAT for getting into fights ... had to win fast or they'd catch the bruises. Parents wanted me in the books, not roughing it up. That's how it was.

Trouble is internally I seriously LIKE fighting. It takes me almost forever to get mad, but when I do I stay that way for days. And I also have a tendency to go *blink* and just go all out. I don't think about losing an eye, a finger, a leg when I'm like that. I have had the fortune not to have that scars like that, or face an opponent skilled enough to put me that way. My concern is how to deal with NOT being able to pound someone into submission. Racism for me is something of a new phenomenon here anyways (trying to slag someone out as "Jap Chink slant-eyed rat" back in Hawai'i is an open invitation to a mass beating.) Eventually, I should get the hang of it ... thank you all for your wisdom. And fubsy, I'm taking your words to heart.

As for reading Sun Zi, surprisingly enough he doesn't mean much to me as most people would think. Sun Zi is just one of a dozen military scholars, just like Tai Kung or Sun Bin. He isn't a character model to the Chinese. Who I really think of is Marquis Zhuge Liang from "Romance of the Three Kingdoms." That epic is known to all ethnic Chinese by heart. When I think of character models I think "What would the general Kuan Yu or the knight Zhao Yun do ..." What really amazes me no end is how Sun Zi got so big here with "Art of War" ... I think of Jomini when I hear that title ... James Clavell had something to do with it certainly. Maybe Skorzeny (if he is reading and deigns to reply) can clear it up.

That's that from me ... sorry it took so long to reply ... moderators, feel free to lock this thread. It's probably no longer relevant to this forum.

In the meantime, I will keep on working ... deadbeat management wants me to stay, doesn't know I have a new contract in the works ... the Presidency, Congress, Fortune 500 company management, what has leadership in this country come to ... the racist has the contempt of everyone on the floor. I just turn my heel and give the jerk a wide berth like I saw a roadkill (which is the feeling I get on sight.) It's okay folks. Battle's won ... now all I have to do is introspection. And look up Muay Thai
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Old November 5, 2000, 10:51 PM   #16
Mike in VA
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Sounds like you'll be fine, young man, carry on. The dregs and the drones will wallow in their own mediocrity, and never know the difference anyhoo. And good luck to you. M2
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Old November 5, 2000, 11:08 PM   #17
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cheapo:
Uhhh, you chose not to engage a MORON!

Thus, you chose not to ESCALATE!

[/quote]

Absolutly right. Today it is the age of the instant lawsuit. Couple that with racial tension, this guy would have been screaming racial beating after you mopped the floor with him. Restaint is often hard but well worth it (until you catch the bastard in the dark alley with no witnesses )

Dan



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Old November 6, 2000, 12:03 PM   #18
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Dragontooth 73...
I know you tinking I stay stalkin', but I tink dis one get to you bruddah.
I know I talk story too much, but being a traveling kanaka, you know that home is in your heart. I'm a transplanted pineapple, been away from home since 1960. Been to visit, of course, but sometimes....you always miss your home.

Anyway, one more story...I was in my job for 23 years. Overall, I loved my job. I got to interact with lots of divisions, especially with police and fire. Had lots of great experiences. Lots of good and bad.
Lots of ups and downs politically, because I get one big mouth (spoke up when things weren't right) but never had to worry about my job because I was one of the few that took on the worst and hardest tasks so most of the time they left me alone.
One day, I made supervisor, not by choice. I made our division number one priority in our city, from almost bottom in one year. I got the council support and raised my division budget from $750,000 to $1 million when all other departments had to take 10% cut...not by politics but by strategy, orienting my staff's efforts.
Two years ago, I got appointed a new boss....a politician. That a#*h*#@! wanted to break us from the old ways (even though we were working it)and since we were not producing the numbers he wanted and I didn't do all his work for him, he had to make me an example.
For almost a whole year he tried to make my life a h#*l. Almost everyday, he called me into his office for three to four hours and chewed me out for things he accused me of. I would stay up to two every morning to do reports for him, only to see him put it in a pile by his desk without looking at it. (I even marked some reports and months later they did not move from that stack). He promoted people into my staff that I would never hire, etc., etc.
I questioned my integrity and abilities, I worried that I would lose my livelihood. I started to get reoccuring nightmares about being in Cambodia,picking up the scoped rifle and using his image to score bulls-eyes.
Even one day, he started to come at me as if to push me, I maneuvered to stand next to a big open window and our office is on the third floor....one more step and it could have been all pau.
But I tell you, Dragontooth 73, you are the "civilized" person...in Chinese "yuhn". You must be based, you must be centered. Except for some moments, I always was reminded to center the ch'i (ki) because you are a survivor as witnessed by your posts. Your life is to have your character tested often (again, as witnessed by your stories.)
If you are Christian, you must remember that the Lord does not test those that he knows is not strong enough. You are strong enough, watakushi no tomodachi.
Hontori muzukashi desu, but that is what makes you stronger and people sense that, therefore some attack. Dewa mata, they are the bully, they are the weaker one....
I, like you cannot counter quickly with words (otherwise, I get myself in trouble). But what you are dealing with is because you are not countering...you are not expending the negative energy.
A trip to the range can help you release it.
If you don't have a chance, you can go to the local dojo...ask the sensei if you could either work out with the other guys or if you could practice your rolls and single person exercises. It will help.
Please excuse the broken Nihongo desu. Gomen nasai.
You have your priorities in order, just remind yourself of your priorities from time to time.
Good luck, Dragontooth '73. You are fine.
Either that, or go out with a trusted friend and get a lot of sake in you and just go bonkers at the karaoke bar...have friend take you home and let you sleep it off.
Catch the next plane to L.A. and i take you to those places. No kid, brah!
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Old November 6, 2000, 02:59 PM   #19
fubsy
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Dragontooth73,
I did not intend to insult you and if I have done so.....I sincerly apologize. I took the direction I did from the tone of your initial post. I was not harping on your family or your mentioning of them, I have had the feeling from some posts the the family connection is perhaps used as a measure of pride. Im not judging nor would I presume such arrogance---I use to be in a similar quandry with regards to fighting. I have been kicked out of two highschools when I was coming up for my willingness to engage. I had to learn restraint and the self realization that my restraint was not weakness----very hard for me, as I come from a military family, of generally working class folks in and around steel mills. Your post to me appeared to show confusion with regards to your action, I was only hoping to help clarify, perhaps I was ineffective. I think that what you did and how you acted was correct, I felt that you were not sure if that was the case, I hoped to point out options, and things to watch for.....my mentioning of sun tzu, was just for someone that we might have a common familization with. Btw, thanks for the Chinese Generals,, Ill look them up....
Dont worry about getting even, get ahead.
I wish you all the best, if you wish to email me privately, please do. my email is available at the top.....fubsy.
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Old November 6, 2000, 04:37 PM   #20
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dragontooth:

You did the right thing. Realize that while it might be very satisfying to pound the jerk, doing so would have huge reprecussions, even if he started the physical violence.

You would probably get fired (he might too, but that would give you much satisfaction). You might well get charged with assault and battery (again, he might as well). Getting fired and/or charged with assault and battery just isn't worth it. Getting in a physical fight at work will be bad for your career, even if he started it and even if you lose it.

You did the right thing. If he tries to provoke you again, I recommend that you be polite, but try to leave and then make a complaint to your human resources department.
In the unlikely even that he does start a fight, I recommend that you do your best to back up and evade, all the while saying things like "leave me alone, I don't want to fight you, take it easy, etc...). The goal is to make sure the bystanders see him as the aggressor and see you retreating.

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Old November 6, 2000, 08:46 PM   #21
dragontooth73
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LASur5er - I like it when I clock out and I know it's pau hana, but getting clocked out is never going to be acceptable. I think I ended up venting coz the majority of the situations I find hostility in, I have restraints (i.e. lawsuits, "civilized" behavior" etc) so even though I know pretty much what's the best way to take 'em down and disengage fast, it's everything leading up to that point that is so damn hard for a dumb keiki like me to read.

In this age of people going violent at the workplace (i.e. Xerox shooting) it's so much more important to figure out when them bad apples go coocoo ... wish things were simpler.

By the way senpai, your Japanese is pono No worries. My pidgin is about as rusty as (insert crap firearm of your choice here.)

fubsy - If I flamed on you then I am very, very, very sorry. I've had the utmost respect for your posts from day one. I'm not really proud of my family history in the way that it reflects on me. If the communists had left things well alone my dad's family would have carried on being silkweavers, my mom's would have been minor gentry. My uncles would have chased water buffalo in the fields, ridden motorcycles, done all those bucolic things we take for granted. Really makes me wonder how quickly people forget just because the Soviets are gone ... communists are still around. We pay for short memories.

fubsy, there's not much translated in the way of military texts, compared to what's out there ... try to get a hold of:

(1) "The Seven Military Classics of Ancient China :Wu Ching Chi Shu (History and Warfare)"
by Ralph D. Sawyer (Translator), Mei-Chun Sawyer (Editor)

(2) "Three Kingdoms: A Historical Novel. Abridged Edition [ABRIDGED]"
by Kuan-Chung Lo, Moss Roberts, Luo Guanzhong, John S. Service

The first will make you completely up to date on pretty much the majority of classical Chinese military thought ... the second is the only readable translated edition of the "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" I have ever been able to find in English. You'll enjoy both. I grew up with the second ... it's like the Tales of King Arthur for Chinese kids ... Chinese politicians even today quote the people out of it, take their sayings and assume their roles.

I'm thinking of the implacable knight Zhao Yun as I write ... the centeredness he had in all his life. fubsy, thank you so much for reminding me of what's important.

everyone, thank you for your wisdom. try to get hold of the two books above when you can. You won't regret it
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Old November 8, 2000, 05:18 PM   #22
LASur5r
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Dragontooth 73,
I was teaching a class in utilizing 'chi for daily living in one of the local community colleges.
This was the first time I taught this kind of class instead of self-defense or a martial arts class, so the type of people were generally older folks, who had more of a live and let live attitude towards life....sheeple type?
So we were doing meditation to relax everyone, when someone felt a spider on her calf. She gently picked it up in her palm and put it down on the mat. I felt that we needed to go into moving meditation, so I asked a very nice, gentle looking lady if she would move the spider out of the way so that it couldn't get hurt.
She eyeballed the spider and splattered it on the mat with one stomp of her foot.
turned out that in that class we had more people that had a hidden tiger inside of them and they needed someone to give them a way to bring it out. Most of them signed up for the self-defense course that was offered the following semester.
Dragontooth 73, thought you might get a little laugh out of this story. (You have that tiger inside of you.)
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Old November 8, 2000, 09:06 PM   #23
dragontooth73
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LOL

My mom's grandma is a seer. You know some ob dem wahines hab dem kaula (prophecy) powers ... my mom predicted all of my 17 motorcycle crashes. I'd come home and she'd already know, whether I was hiding a bleeding leg or if I didn't have a scratch on me. She just knew.

My grandma, she knew when I was born coz she saw a dream of a tiger cub jumping into her lap ... straight she makes a call to Japan, says "he's born, isn't he?"

I wish I had that inside of me, awake.

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Old November 9, 2000, 05:57 PM   #24
Tamara
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People often mistake "politeness" for "fear" or "lack of spirit".

When a red-headed, freckled, mean-as-a-striped-a$$-snake little girl moved from Chicago down to Georgia as a child, she had a hard lesson coming about the Southern mindset: A Southerner will be polite to you right up to the point where they are mad enough to kill you. I came home with a couple of sandlot black eyes before I completely grokked that lesson. Now I espouse it myself; I find it nice and civilized, as well as helping with the element of surprise should I ever actually have to take a swing...

------------------
"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
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Old November 9, 2000, 07:05 PM   #25
Spectre
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Join Date: October 23, 1998
Location: ATL
Posts: 3,277
Exactly. If the situation seems to be escalating, I typically get more and more polite, to the point of being genteel.

Tamara, what shop do you work from? I used to go to Bernie's in Norcross, but now usually go to Dave's Gun Room, since I moved.
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