Knife brought to gun fight at Wal-Mart

[Cremon]

I have to agree with Old Grump. I said this in another thread but I'll repeat it here. I do not know how to fight with a knife - so there is no way in hell I am going to take a knife to a knife fight.

I will use a gun in ANY fight that I can't run from or otherwise avoid being in where the stakes are life or death because that is the tool I know how to use. That is why I Carry a gun Concealed. I will fare MUCH better in a fight with my gun than I will with a knife or my bare fists regardless of what the BG is armed with.

[m.p.driver]

Have to agree with you.Carried knives in the Army,Ka-Bar,Gerber,Ontario.But i wouldn't have much confidence in taking out someone with a super duper wonder gadget pig sticker.I'll stick with my Glock 21.

[Buzzcook]

The odds of a person being trained in knife work are very low. However if a person is willing to pull a knife on someone with a gun, they are probably willing to use it if they get close enough. So it would be a good idea not to let them get close enough.

[ClayInTx]

Arm length: 30 to 36 inches.
Knife length: 6 to 10 inches
Maximum range: 1-1/3 yards

Range of gun: _______

[cracked91]

Well, with the 21 foot rule, and almost any situation where its a gun vs. a knife, the scenario (or video depicting it) always seems to be that the gun is holstered, the gun holder is clueless, and the knife wielder already has the knife out and is in a ready to pounce position. I know for a fact that if I had my pistol unholstered and in the ready position, and some bag had their knife unsheathed and in the ready position, I would rather have a smaller pistol. Even in a close range or melee fight. My hands are slightly big for my grips (which I prefer) which makes holding it tightly easy. With a gun all you have to hold your own just long enough to point and pull the trigger. Mind you, you can't cut someones throat with a gun, or slash any arteries, and you only have as many chances as you have bullets. But Im going to go out on a limb and say that 90% of the time I would put my money on someone highly trained with a handgun over someone highly trained with a knife or highly trained in martial arts.

[Kyo]

potential range of the gun is only as well as you can aim it...it might have a huge range, but you have to point it in the right direction

[Deaf Smith]

90% of the time I would put my money on someone highly trained with a handgun over someone highly trained with a knife or highly trained in martial arts.

I don't have to gamble. I am a 'highly trained martial artist' and I'd put my money on the gun guy if they are good with a gun.

I know for a fact that if I had my pistol unholstered and in the ready position

Does not even have to be that way. Just have your hand on the gun while it's in the holster will do.

At one of SouthNarc's classes we timed that. Including reaction time you can hit a IDPA target 7 yards away in well less than a second. Just have your hand on the gun and be primed for action.

Now if you are in the mist of a grappling situation, then yes the knife can have an advantage, but anyplace outside that range the gun rules. Your gun can be tucked besides your ribbs and still deliver hits, something a knife can't.

And that is why in the 1850s, when the first cap-n-ball revolvers came out, river gamblers and the like started to migrate away from the knife as their primary defense.

[ClayInTx]

If one is carrying a gun but one does not know how to aim the gun then one should not be carrying a gun, should one?

[BGutzman]

I carried a Gerber MK II combat dagger for years and years while I was in the military. It seems uncle sam usually liked to send me dangerous places with a M16 and no bullets (whole military units do this at times, otherwise we might hurt someones feelings, better dead than on the news) so I always carried a knife as the weapon of last resort.

I never actually ended up needing to employ it but I can think of two situations when I was ready too. It probably would not have saved me in either situation but I would have at least made someone unhappy.

In any case never underestimate a knife just because you have a gun, at close range you could well find the knife faster than the gun and that would not be good.

[Ricky]

"At one of SouthNarc's classes we timed that. Including reaction time you can hit a IDPA target 7 yards away in well less than a second. Just have your hand on the gun and be primed for action."


Who picked 7 yards? That's 21 feet. That's all the way across my living room!
From my experience most confrontations happen at much closer distance, more like 4 to 10 FEET, not yards. If your adversary has his knife out and is coming for you, you won't have time to get your gun out even if you have your hand on it. You might be able to use your gun but you are going to get cut.
Same principle applies if your adversary is a well trained martial artist. Your only chance is back-peddling to gain space and reaction time. If you don't have space behind you you'd better know how to use the weapons God gave you.

[The Tourist]

Sorry guys, the statistics, LEO reports and anecdotal evidence show that firearms do not always trump edged weapons.

In fact, handguns don't fare too well overall. Even when hit, victims survive 55% of the time. Many times ER staff find old bullets that are shown in x-rays when treating people with new wounds.

Additionally, you may inflict inflict a wound where your attacker does in fact die--three days later after surgery. Even mortally wounded he has ample time to slice you up like a Christmas goose.

Evan Marshall, a retired LEO and magazine writer, did extensive research well into the 1980's tracking one shot stops. And remember, we had things like Super Vel ammunition and Safety Slugs during part of that era. Large caliber pistols are no guaranty.

Another factor to make the numbers even worse is that not all rounds fired are hits. You might be carrying the best combat pistol made with some of the finest designed cartridges produced--and all is for naught if you miss. Remember the old canard, "A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44..."

Factor drugs, liquor and pure adrenaline into the mix and your argument gets even shakier. Ayoob printed a story about a man hit 33 times with hollowpoints and one shotgun slug. He finished the story stating, "He is now awaiting trial." That's right, he lived! The LEOs thought that he must be higher than a kite on something akin to PCP, but the examination proved he was just angry.

So here's my conclusion: Are you going to risk your life, and that includes being maimed for all time, on a joke bandied about like an urban legend? As for training, how much MA creds does it take for an angry, drunken aggressor to slice open your jugular vein with a garden variety folder that's does the same to whitetail deer?

Firing guarantees nothing but a chance you may not be injured. Stepping back lets you go home safe. Do you want to risk your security on an old wive's tale?

[Cremon]

Originally Posted by The Tourist

Sorry guys, the statistics, LEO reports and anecdotal evidence show that firearms do not always trump edged weapons.

No one here said ALWAYS - they said the gun wielder fared better MOST of the time. And I would tend to agree with that assessment. You won't convince me the guy with the knife wins more often than the guy with the gun. But as you pointed out - sometimes they BOTH lose.

I personally would use a gun against a knife fighter because I KNOW I cannot beat a knifer fighter with a knife. I at least have a chance if I have a gun.

And I vehemently disagree with your conclusion based on the facts you cite. It's not about risking security on any old wives tale. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that over 90% of people do NOT know how to fight with a knife. And I think that percentage in reality is probably still much higher. If you are suggesting that people try to use a knife against a guy that obviously knows how to use one since he carries one - INSTEAD of using their gun - my personal feeling is that you are handing out very bad advice that could get people killed.

And I think we all agree here that running away is the best option no matter WHAT the BG is armed with if running away is an option to you. I don't think anyone here is advocating getting into any fight you can run or walk away from.

[Cremon]

***************Mods - please delete duplicate post***************

[The Tourist]

Cremon, this is a debate, not a training video.

But here's my overall point. Safety for our members.

How many times have you been in a saloon dust-up where the opposing guy hit you--even when you won? If you are honest, you'll admit that it's "quite often." If you factor in 'glancing blows' and the coward's tool, 'the sucker punch,' it probably works out to be "more than often." My nose has been broken.

Now consider my side of the debate. Instead of the opponents hand, let's suppose it was a knife, even a cheap knife.

As for the debate, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. However, all of TFL members are on the same side. And if a younger guy feels he has nothing to lose in opposing a knife because of info discussed here, you know he's going to get cut.

And if he comes across an ex-con familiar with a shiv, the member might die.

Edit: I forgot to address your postulate that 90% of the common thugs do not have knife skills. Fair enough, let's suppose your right. I still wouldn't risk my safety on being cut only 10% of the time.

[Cremon]

I wasn't saying that 90% of thugs don't have knife skills - I was saying that 90% of honest folks like you and I don't. (Though YOU might but I can tell you with certainty that I do not).

My position is simply this - It looks to me NOW that you are counseling people not to start a fight with a guy that has a knife if they have a gun - if THAT is your position then I am good with it. But if the guy with the KNIFE starts the fight - MY position is don't take a knife to a knife fight if you don't know how to use a knife - because it's almost certain that if the thug pulls a knife on you that he DOES know how to use it.

I thought you were saying that people should have a knife in case a knife fighter attacks them - that was the supposition I was attacking. But in reading your last statement about a young guy not backing down from a fight, I may have read your first post wrong. If so, I apologize.

But if a guy pulls a knife on me, I am pulling a GUN on HIM if I can't run away.

[45ACPShooter]

You can fling around statistics all you want but the reality is that firearms are much more lethal. There's a reason why law enforcement, the military, and criminals use firearms over knives. The vast majority of the time someone chooses to use a knife than a firearm is because they don't have a firearm. No one is saying that you can't kill someone with a knife and knives aren't lethal but to try to say that they are just as lethal or more lethal than a firearm is just ridiculous. I know a lot more people walking around today who have been stabbed or cut with a knife than I do people who've been shot.

[stephen426]

Obviously the best thing to do is avoid confrontations at all cost. If the proverbial poop does hit the fan, you need to analyze the situation (quickly) and go from there.

At contact distances where an opponent already has a knife drawn, I seriously doubt that anyone can draw a knife or a gun without cut. Does that mean we simply give in? If it is a robbery, I would be inclined to say yes since material possessions replacable. If you are getting attacked or (for the women) raped, I say fight for your life since there is nothing to lose. In that case, you draw what you are best with and risk your weak arm to protect your body.

I think everyone (who is physically capable) should take some kind of self defense course. Some very basic strikes could easily end an attack, or at least create an opportunity to flee or draw a weapon. A swift kick to the groin may be a cheap shot, but it will drop most men in a hurry. Kicks to the knees are also very effective if properly executed.

In confrontations where the attacker is not within contact distance, I would go with a gun. I am more proficient with a gun than a knife, and there is no way for me to know an attacker's proficiency with a knife. It would be a stupid gamble for me to assume I am better with a knife than he is. Besides, I would have distance on my side. If I pulled a knife and then the attacker pulled a gun, I would be in a bad position.

So with all that said, avoid trouble at all costs and fight like heck with whatever you are best with if there really are no other options.

[AcridSaint]

I don't think any of us had the idea that carriers should be switching to knives, just trying to point out that one must take any knife wielder very seriously. Just because I have a gun on me does not mean I have an advantage against a knife, I treat the knife even more seriously than I do the gun, and I treat the gun pretty seriously.

Our own skills with knives, guns or spoons don't tell us anything about what that other guy knows, doesn't know, intends or doesn't intend. The best way I ever heard it put was like this - a knife turns a 100lb man into an 800lb gorilla. I'm pretty afraid of gorillas too

Lastly - there is only one thing you need to kill/mame someone with a knife - intent. It's all fine to debate on the Internet, but seriously, ANYONE with a knife and the mindset to use it can hurt you badly. It's not about who "wins", it's about who doesn't die or have their life changed forever.

[Cremon]

If someone pulls a knife and comes after me - I will be firing when I draw. There will be no discussion. None of the statistics and historical facts cited here will change that action plan of mine. Because like Acridsaint said - knife wielders are to be taken seriously. Seriously enough for me to shoot the split second my gun is drawn and ready.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by stephen426

Obviously the best thing to do is avoid confrontations at all cost...Does that mean we simply give in?

I don't want anyone member here to get hurt, or give in if cornered. But we should advise our members about just what's going on out there.

This isn't the first time I've had this debate, let me tell you about a previous one.

I was debating a gun guy who thought that a bullet trumped everything. I offered to send him one of my knives for test cutting. I asked him to cut meat, fish--even wrap it in denim. His response was, "No fair, your stuff is designed for chefs and sushi."

And that's the point. When you decide to square off, you are making the choice to face any skill your opponent has and anything that comes out of his pockets. And at the defining moment the altercation begins and you notice a dojo pin on his collar and a Japanese laminate folder flip open it's a tad late to say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're better than I am, let me run home quick and get a better gun!"

Do you really want to gamble even a 10% chance against a sushi edge or an ex-con? Do you want to risk that Golden Saber against the ten to fifteen seconds in limbo where he grabs you and slices away? Is your ego worth the next thirty to forty years where one of your arms no longer functions from nerve and tendon damage?

I'm not going to risk it. I'm not going to advise it. I do not believe in this old joke when the discussion uses my flesh as a debating point.

[Cremon]

Tourist - unless you are counseling people to run away from a fight, I am failing to see the point you are making. Are you telling people to rely on something besides their gun if faced with a knife with a really sharp edge? Because if I HAVE to fight (i.e I can't run away) such a guy, I am not using ANYTHING but a gun and I will wager that the majority of members here would do the very same thing.

Originally Posted by The Tourist

Do you want to risk that Golden Saber against the ten to fifteen seconds in limbo where he grabs you and slices away?

If I can't get away and the fight is going to happen? Absolutely. No question whatsoever. Anything else (for me) would be suicide and the BG gets away. I might die using a gun - but I am NOT going to try and fight him with a knife instead of my gun. NO WAY.

[stephen426]

I got a response for you guys...

Don't bring a knife arguement to a gun forum! There!

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by stephen426

Don't bring a knife arguement to a gun forum

LOL. Stephan, I enjoy debating, and yes, you win some folks over. And I think the fudds here have done a pretty thorough job of demonstrating that getting a boo-boo is a bad thing. Who knows, some here might mull these exchanges and modify there actions. Overall, this has been a friendly and informative discussion.

Even I get sucked into the "chances of survival" angle. But something happened in my life that rules out that opinion once and for all.

I was working at an upscale four-star one afternoon when a sous-chef placed a leg of beef on the working space behind me. He paused a bit and looked over the piece of meat to decide on just how much trimming and slicing needed to be done. Half joking, I asked if a sharp butakiri would help.

He laughed and said, Yeah, if you would pronounce it right!"

I reached into my kit and handed him a sharp, white steal butakiri worth about 22 dollars. I took a break to watch him work. Within a scant few minutes he had blocked the entire leg out to perfectly trimmed individual portions, and that included removing damaged sections, fat and the silvers.

This man was trained for the culinary pursuits, he had no credentials in the martial arts. He had a cheap knife. And yet an entire leg off of a cow fell apart in a few minutes.

Now granted, the cow had no firearm, but the example stands. We assume we will win, and we feel some assuredness that we will not be injured. I'm not so sure, and I've seen what a knife can really do.

My only hope here is that you guys just think over the posts here.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

In a knife class, a very large individual opined that no one would mess with him because he is large and fierce. The instructor, a small guy, said that some small guys like to fight big guys because (insert various theories of personality here). Instructor demonstrated how he got inside the big guy and with the practice blade, stabbed and sliced him a zillion times in a second - or so it seemed.

I also heard a police officer say the scariest thing he ever saw was a crazed 8 year old girl running at him, whirling a big old chef's knife in a blurring figure-8.

That would have looked great when he shot her.

[tlm225]

I'm no knife expert though I am pretty proficient at cutting my steak. Don't underestimate your adversary, ever. Your handgun may not stop him before he closes the gap and reaches contact distance. Once a man with a knife is in contact with you, his knife becomes the superior weapon. If you are being charged by a man with a knife move off the line of the charge and shoot. Or shoot and move. Get a barrier (table, desk, checkout counter, car, etc...) between you and the adversary to slow his advance. The blade must make contact to harm, you job is to avoid that contact.