Questions re. 10mm

[jhendon]

I am seriously considering the purchase of a Glock29 10mm because I want to pack concealed while hiking and fishing - frequently alone. I want a round to deal with black bear, cougar and feral dogs and, of course, two-legged predators upon whose pot patch or meth lab I may accidentally stumble.

Balancing the trade-offs between weight, size, ballistics, and magazine capacity, initial examination leads me to think the Glock20 10mm would be an excellent choice. Any feedback - pro or con - is welcome.

Already, however, I have been told that 10mm ammo is hard to come by. This isn't a big deal because I plan to load my own in order to have "city loads" and "country loads". But I haven't reloaded before and am studying up on that subject also.

I notice that Lee packages the .40 S&W and the 10mm dies together. Doing the math I see the .40 bore is .0063" larger than the 10mm. Does that mean a gun that can chamber the .40 S&W can handle the 10mm round as well?

I've also read the Glock20 is the only autoloader that can chamber what would be considered a magnum load in a revolver - one reason I thought it would be a good choice for bear or cougar.

But if the bore size of the 10mm is almost identical to the .40 S&W, I would like to better understand the difference between these two.

[HighVelocity]

Check out www.10mmtalk.com

I also own a Glock 20 and it's one of the most accurate autos I've ever had. 15 rounds of magnum power in one mag is a formitable weapon.

Small to medium Hogs, ok, bears, I'm not so sure about that.

If you ask Ted NUgent I think he believes the 10mm will take down the moon with one shot.

[caz223]

.40 and 10mm are the same, the brass is the difference.
Also, the dies are the same, too.
You just adjust the dies a bit differently.

The major difference in the brass is the .40 uses the small pistol primer, and the 10mm uses the large pistol primer (Or large pistol magnum primer!).
Also, 10mm brass is rumored to be stronger, and it's a tiny bit longer, like the difference between .38 special and .357 magnum....
If you wanted to load for both, and don't mind using the same bullet weight, the same bullets will go in either.....
I buy 10mm/.40 165 HP rainiers by the thousand to save a few pennies....

[caz223]

As for the Glock 20 being the only 'magnum' auto, I have two words for you.
Desert.
Eagle.
I have many 10mm handguns, and the glock isn't the only game in town.
Anyway, a 10mm round won't chamber in a .40 caliber weapon, not enough room in magazine/chamber.
If you put a .40 in a 10mm autoloader, it may fire, it may even extract, but it certainly isn't advisable except SHTF situations.
It prolly won't have a very good gas seal, may not even have enough oomph to cycle the slide.
Now, if you happen to have the smith 610 revolver, and a handfull of moonclips, you can shoot .40 ammo in your 10mm weapon all day long with no problems.
That is one exception.

[caz223]

That all being said, I have a G20, and I do enjoy it.
You can even buy different barrels for it online, to convert it to other calibers, like 357SIG, and .40 s(hort) & w(impy).
You can also buy lots of 15 round mags, mag extension kits to add 2 rounds, stronger springs, longer (6") 10mm 'hunting' barrels, barrels with compensators built-in, etc.
The G20 mags also work in the G29, the shorter, smaller version of the G20.
The G29 is smaller to carry, and has a stock 10 round flush fit magazine.
It takes the G20 15 round magazine just fine, but the mag is no longer flush fit, and hangs out of the bottom a bit. You can actually buy adaptors to fit onto your G20 magazines to use on G29s, and when inserted in a G29, the mag now feels like a grip extension, rather than a mag hanging out the bottom of the gun.

[caz223]

Also, if you're serious about 10mm backwoods ammo, click this link: http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php
15 rounds of that in the mag, and one or two more 15 round mags on your person is prolly, pound-for-pound, one of the most competent self defense tools you can find anywhere.

If you have any specific questions about the 10mm, or the G20, just ask in this thread, or wander over to http://glocktalk.com/
The 10 ring section deals with the 10mm round, and I bet just lurking around in there would answer a lot of your questions...
Also, there are a lot of useful little gadgets available at:
http://www.glockmeister.com/
http://www.topglock.com/index.html

[jhendon]

Thanks caz223 - good info, I'll check out those sites. Also, thanks for mentioning those model numbers - I had it backwards - it's the Glock 29 I'm thinking of getting - I want the smaller size and weight. I went back and edited my original post.

I've only hefted the Desert Eagle a few times at gun shows, and I've never shot one, but if I remember correctly it's pretty heavy and would be a lot to pack (and conceal) on a long hike.

[caz223]

Ya, desert eagles don't carry well 'mexican style' tucked in your shorts, esp. with the 10" barrel.
I personally don't have a G29, it's on my short list.
You may want to start off with lighter loads on the G29, I hear it's a handfull with full power loads.
It's awfully easy to give yourself a nasty flinch by trying to do too much, too soon. Take your time.

[WESHOOT2]

After attempting to make a Glock M20 the thing you want, I bought a 5.5" 45 Colt Redhawk.
Now I got it.



(Tried everything including grip reduction, trigger goodies -- which resulted in a superior nearly-1911 feel -- , hard-fit Jarvis (by Jarvis), sights galore, and some other stuff.)

[beardking]

Caz,
Where do you buy ranier bullets by the thousands and how much? I'm looking for economical avenues to purchase good bullets for my CZ .40.

[caz223]

http://www.midwayusa.com
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=116365
The bottom link just happens to be the bullets I use.
I was buying at grafs.com before, but midway is way cheaper, way faster, and doesn't screw up orders like grafs.
Anyway, they're out of stock right now, looks like I bought them out.
I wonder if they're out of 124HP 9mm bullets, too....
Nope, guess not, they keep more of them in stock....

[Sturm]

There is of course, always more than one way to skin a cat. On this occasion, I will agree with WS2's philosophy! If I need more power than the level of the 10mm, and I would want it for Black Bear, or Cougars, I would go right to the .41, .44 magnum, or the magnum level .45 Long Colt loads. If you feel comfortable shooting these animals with the 10mm, that's fine, just hope you have had previous experience doing so. A pissed off 400 lb. Black Bear could really change your life for the worse and even though they are much smaller, a wounded Cougar is serious business. We don't have Black Bear in N. Central Texas, but we do get the occasional wandering Cougar lookin' for somthin' to eat.

A fairly new development that has come along recently for the .40 S&W is data for Hodgdon Longshot and Vihta Vuori's new 3N38 (165 gr, bullet at 1315 FPS from a 4" barrel under 32,000 PSI), better still, Ramshot Enforcer using small magnum pistol primers (155 @ 1372FPS and 165 @ 1322 and both under 32,000 PSI, both from 4" test barrels) and if the .40 is short and weak the 10mm ain't gonna be much stronger. Remember, .40 data is usually developed in 4" barrels vs. 5" barrels or longer for the 10mm. Personally, I like the 10mm a great deal, but until we have a pistol truly designed for everyday use with it, let's just say it's not the Glock for me and the Smith 1006 didn't sell well enough to stay alive. 1911's are fine, but they will have maintenance and wear issues. Many have been hounding CZ to offer a 10mm version of the 97 B, but CZ is in the Czech Republic and they just don't think about these things the way we do. Besides, they do make the 75 B that the Bren was copied from and it is available in .40 not so Short & Wimpy if you use the data above.

I might have an occasional field use for my XD Tactical sometime using this data. With the 5" barrel, I'm not going to worry much about the very slight difference in performance vs. 10mm. So, my conclusion is, get an XD 4" service model that has a dual recoil spring system BTW, and you have a everyday pistol that is still capable of 10mm like performance when you need it. If you can carry a 5" pistol, CZ 75 or XD Tactical. Just one more way to skin the cat and isn't that was draws many of us into reloading anyway?

[cheygriz]

The Glock 20 and factory Winchester 175 GR silvertips will do everyhing you need done.

And you can buy the silvertips bullets for reloading.

But in a 10MM, I would strongly suggest the 20, NOT the "itty, bitty" 29!

[WESHOOT2]

That ain't "philosophy", that's reality.

(And I've sold 10mm that customer chrono'd: 135g Nosler = 1821fps; 155g Gold Dot = 1569fps; 180g XTP = 1428fps; 200g Hornady FMJ = 1378fps. Sufficient, IMNSHO, for a 'woods gun', ay?)
(And FWIW, extreme spreads were 21, 17, 15, and 15fps respectively.)

Besides, my 5.5" 45 Colt launches a comforting 335g at an easy-handling real-fast; better, I'd say.
Or that perfect 360............but slower

[WESHOOT2]

Nope, not Longshot nor 3N38.

[Sturm]

From a Glock 20? Did he have long hair and a Gibson Les Paul by chance? I might have seen him in concert during the late 70's man!

[WESHOOT2]

Mine, using the stock and Jarvis barrels, for development; customer graciously reported chrono data back to me. Yep, his M20.

Recoil system tweaked........

[Sturm]

Evidently and maybe his wrist too!

[Sturm]

BTW, WS2, might want to tell these guys where they can find that reloading data!

The Longshot, 3N38 and Enforcer, they can find!

[caz223]

Beleive it or not, at glock talk, they have a special place specifically for 10mm reloading. Much useful data at glocktalk there is, my young padawan.

[Sturm]

Thanks, but I'll stick to the manuals! We are after all talkin' about a twenty sumthin' oz. pistol.

Like the title of an REO Speedwagon album says: YOU CAN TUNE A PIANO, BUT YOU CAN'T TUNA FISH!

[WESHOOT2]

Manuals are actually more properly referred to as "Guides", ay?


Oh, and screw SAAMI.


(........still echoing........)

[caz223]

"screw SAAMI"

Whether spoken in jest or not, I couldn't agree more.

[Sturm]

So, let me get this straight, WES. First you recommend going to a Magnum revolver in regard to the original subject of the thread and then change your mind to loads in 10mm that scream, SCREW SAAMI?

I'm sure there are some knowledgeable reloaders at Glock forum, but I don't see a lot of Glock owners mentioning that the ejection ports on their pistols need to be relieved or have their barrels replaced with an aftermarket version that will support the casehead. The faster your handloads are, the harder your brass is hitting an unrelieved ejection port. Since you use an aftermarket supported barrel which adds what, $200 to the price of a $500-$600 polymer pistol? Hopefully, you guys have had your ejection ports relieved and a competent pistolsmith would tell you it should be.

For anyone else that does live on planet earth, If I owned a Glock 20 in 10mm, I think I would be a little more inclined to follow the advice that cheygriz offered and go with a 175 gr. Sivertip, or a high velocity load in 180 or 200 grains.

[WESHOOT2]

First: SAAMI is (another) lowest-common-denominator voluntarily-joined group.
I do not belong.

Second, I recommend a wheel in minimum 44 Mag for biting creatures, aka "woods gun'.

Third, my mind did not change; I had a customer with a specific need, I developed the loads (although this customer sent data), and I did not recommend them to anyone. Just observed that one could make do with a correctly loaded M20 if one had the wherewithal to spend and test for reliability.

I am beginning to think you, sir(?), are an argumentative cuss with an ego problem; you gotta be right. So stop it and try to learn something, ay?