Ever meet someone who would't use the 'the kick'?

[Skorzeny]

LawDog:

Was that a "triangle choke" (Sankaku-Jime in Judo)? This is often cited as a prime example of a sportive technique that should NOT be used in a real fight - because it puts the mouth of the defender perilously close to the attacker's groin. Also, it is possible (before 2-3 second lights out time) to pick up the attacker and slam him down (neck first).

In Kodokan Judo, as soon as the defender is able to pick up the attacker, the bout restarts. Recently in a UFC match, Matt Hughes (I think) was being triangular choked by Carlos Newton and was about to lights out when he mustered the last second strength, picked Newton up and slammed him down as he was being passed out. Both were out, but Hughes recovered first and got up, winning the match.

BTW, did anyone see an episode of "King of the Hill" when Bobby learns "women's self-defense," goes around kicking everyone in the groin and becomes the school bully? The principal's reaction to Hank was classic: "now Hank, you can't just have your son going around kicking everyone in the nuts!"

Skorzeny

[Rickmeister]

"You mean...you and I will lay down our weapons and then try to kill eachother like civilized people?"

---Westley to Fessik, in The Princess Bride (1987)

[LawDog]

Skorzeny, sort of, except he didn't have my arm up and the choke locked around my neck and arm for a proper sankaku-jime. He had his legs wrapped around only my neck -- which made it rather easier to lay a fang or eight into his thigh.

His look of total shock that I would stoop to biting in a fight was priceless.

Well, it was up until he caught those elbow shots into the temple and jaw hinge.

LawDog

[illuminatus99]

if I'm in a fight it's because the guy wants to kill me so bad that I can't talk my way out of it, I'll even take a punch without hitting back if I deflect it enough to not do any damage. that said, I have no problem biting or going for the groin, I've got really sharp teeth and it wouldn't be difficult for me to take a chunk out of someone. most of the fights I've been in though were stopped when I told the guy that he hits like a little girl and should go practice if he wants to fight me that bad.

[fix]

The groin area is probably the hardest target to hit on a man. We are taught to protect it from birth. You should set a higher priority on other things, but if the opportunity presents itself...let 'em have it.

[buzz_knox]

The kick (or crush grip if necessary) is always appropriate in a real fight where the point is to survive. In practice/play fighting, it's not appropriate unless you really want to win at all costs. I've done the latter and apologized profusely afterwards (although my father learned to never put me in a headlock again).

[Bogie]

One thing that folks don't expect is for you to reach down and grab 'em. Not necessarily fun, but it works really well, and allows you to suddenly have their undivided attention.

[Byron Quick]

I saw a plainclothes cop use an interesting techique once. He slammed his open palm into this guy's groin, grabbed, twisted, and pulled straight up. Simultaneously with his other hand, he struck the guy in the throat with the web of his hand and grabbed. Both the strikes were rather light as was the grip on the guy's throat. What really had the mojo on it was the grab, twist and straight up pull on the nads. The guy jumped about two feet in the air, the cop assisted his flight, twirled him head over heels and slammed him into the sidewalk. End of fight.

I've been in a fair number of fights. No one's managed to nail me in the groin since childhood. I assume that others can protect themselves also. Therefore, I go for other targets.

[Quartus]

Levi's (or similar) with a snug, but not super tight, fit, will do a fair job of absorbing a kick or a grab. Especially if the legs are spread. This will stretch the material, causing it to act like a shock absorber. (If it's too loose it won't do that.)

In that situation a kick is a wasted move at best, and an opening for the other guy at worst.

BTDT.

[Dave McC]

I guess I had around 200 Uses of Force during the 20 years I worked in some of Md's toughest prisons.

A coupla things....

First, during the worst of times, I wore an armored supporter along with a Second Chance vest.
The vest saved me from a sucker punch during a major disturbance. I responded properly and $%^&*( up the perp.

As for the groin,kicking same leaves one close to toppling over, since it's so high off the ground.
A knee's a much better target.

As for rules of engagement, there are but two.

1, WIN!!!

2, Always follow Rule 1....

[Najdorf]

Lawdog,

It sounds like he tried to use techniques beyond his skill or training, and you capitalized well on his mistakes.

As you know, your opponent made several errors....working the guard in a bar fight would be high on the list...but also he should have never locked in the triangle without the arm in the proper place (to do so means that it is not really a triangle choke and the person can not only bite but counter/pass to the side mount as well, and it is difficult to choke him out that way unless he allows it). If done correctly- If your own arm had been pulled across your throat and locked in, its very difficult to bite anything since your own arm is in the way. If a person in your triangle starts to bite, and is able to, which in my experience people can't effectively, you can always change a triangle into an arm lock since you have the arm. If due to some major error on my part, someone in my triangle bit down and locked his teeth, I would typically instantly use my thumb to to push into his eyeball until he released, which he would quickly. The force of my push would depend on if I was injured by his bite and to what extent. Of course, to avoid his triangle attempt in the first place, you have to keep your back straight.

[Najdorf]

p.s. changing the triangle to an arm bar has the added benefit that if he wants to keep biting as his arm is breaking, the only thing that he will be able to bite is your ass.

[fourdeuce82d]

"...only thing he will be able to bite is your ass."

Don't know thing one about grappling, but that reminded of an incident w/a guy who was drunk, had a short man complex, and could box a little.

Kept pushing it, wanting to slap fight, even though I was begging off- dancing around, "ding!" "ding!" "ding!"

Grabbed him, picked him up to my face level, ass in my face...latched on *hard*.

Like some other poster said, the look on his face after I dropped him was priceless.

[Najdorf]

lol. great story four...but in general, if getting bit stops a person, they weren't much of a fighter. I've seen a lot of bites, and felt a few, but I've never seen a good fighter quit after one.

I have to say, the ass is the one place where I'd rather take a bite than give it.

[Zander]

And when I look at my one year old niece, I think, "Thank goodness I didn't leave any permanent damage!" -- ROTL

No kidding...that is one beautiful child.

[Kirk Keller]

Are you still tucking your nuts into your sock?

I was raised to believe that you never start a fight, but you always finish it, and that if someone is trying to cause you physical injury, anything and everything you can do to cause them to cease and desist is perfectly fair.

FYI... the worst shot in the nads I ever took was from behind. A young lady who didn't much care for my choice of dates came up behind me intending to kick me in the butt really hard. She missed and I must've gone 10 feet up in the air. I instinctively turned around launching a vicious right cross and caught her square on the jaw before I realize it was a her. She went down hard (out cold, jaw broken in 3 places) and I lay on the ground whimpering and trying to catch my breath for at least 20 minutes. :barf: The toe of her Justin Ropers (I'm from cattle country) just happened to catch Mr. Rightside dead center... I felt bad about the whole thing after I could walk again, but felt no remorse whatsoever while I was on the ground... The twist? She and I ended up going steady for the next three years.

[kungfool]

quite honestly.......in my experience...........the tesitcles are used to an attacker's disadvantage much better when grabbed and pulled/squeezed by a defendant than when struck. I have seen big bad ass bikers (drunk like a skunk) stare without blinking after another guy kicked him in the nads. Then the mellee begins and the groin kicker's girlfriend steps up from behind and gets a double handfull of the the kicked bikers jewels and begins trying to rip them off! The kicked biker blinked then, and bellowed like hell as he tried to reach around and then down to dislodge the hands that had seemingly welded themselves to his privates. (No, really, it wans't me and my girlfriend)

Sure, strike the nads, grab the nads...(I'm not gonna go so far as to bite them!)....but understand that it is not a one strike/grab solution to being attacked.......it's just for openers........a kick to the groin could well be followed with a palm strike to the nose, or any number of follow ups that may allow you to prevail.


One rule:......NEVER EVER kick someone in the groin and then just stand there to wait and see what they will do!

[wingnutx]

A smack in the nuts is a great 'startling' move, even if it can't be a fight stopper. Just follow up with something better immediately.

[gburner]

I agree with Dave McC...there are other targets of opportunity that present themselves more readily. I find that a palm strike to the nose can be quite effective in putting doubt in an attacker's mind. Knees,
shins,and various other joints are excellent targets for pain inducing blows or compliance holds. It was my experience that prisoners I worked with expected guards to 'follow the rules' when in a physical exchange and were surprised, even stunned when they encountered different. I'll take 'testicles for 100, Alex' if it's offered unprotected, but my preferred method is the grab and twist rather than delivering a blow
there. In agreement with others too. If an aggressor has chosen unwisely and leaves you no other choice than to protect youself physically, ALL options are open.

[Joe Demko]

Nuts..nads...yarbles...cojones...ballocks...goolies...stones...and the handling of same in combat. Let's discuss.
First, a couple quotes:
"You don't rough domy with nuts!" spoken by the neighbor malchick after a malenky devotchka from the neighborhood semi-accidentally fisted him in the yarblockos during an eegra of tag, O my brothers.
"...and then skvat him by the yarbles." govoreeted by W.E. Fairbairn at the conclusion of most of his rook-to-rook demos.
If I allow Your Humble Narrator to reach the point of being a participant in a drat, I consider the carman pool filly-set to be just odin possible target. Knees are generally a better bet, as our droogs have already pointed out. If I itty after Mr. Happy's nutty neighbors, I don't skvat them gently. Skvatty, squeezing, pulling, twisting, all have better immediate effect than a tolchok or rooker, in my experience. I once turned a 200+ pound bolshy chelloveck into Peewee Herman by reaching between his legs from behind and skvatty his package totale. He skippiwipped and danceywanced on tippytoes all the way out the door.
Do what is necessary to survive with like as malenky vred to your veck as possible.

[Gomez]

The concept of "fight" and the concept of "fair" are mutually exclusive.

I served in a National Guard Military Police unit for several years. NG units have a greatly varied makeup of people. A large percentage of us were former active duty soldiers. A large percentage were full-time (civiallian) law enforcement. And a certain percentage were young, college kids who had never had to deal with the Army, LE or violence in any real capacity.

Often we would have discussions, with "practical application", trying to get the idea that countervailing violence was the only exceptable course of action to violent attack. We had one young buck who steadfastly refused to accept the groin as a viable target. He also could not come to grips with the idea of the "bite" as a worthwhile tool and the mere mention of Mike de Bethencourt's knife technique was more than he could bare.

One of my associates, at the end of his wits dealing with the young man, exclaimed in a loud voice, as the new PL walked in, "GO****MIT, IF I HAD TO I'D BITE HIS F***ING BALLS OFF!."

The look on the PL's face was truly priceless. Unfortunately, I don't think that it ever quite clicked for young buck .

[pbarrick]

It's a fight, folks. And, since Kelly McCann is so quotable, "a fight, by it's very nature, is a struggle."

Mulitple, rapid strikes to the head/neck area (in order to rock the brain in it's brain-housing group) and from the groin on down are necessary to end fights.

I'll know that I've used enough strikes in hand-to-hand the same way I know I need to reassess when shooting--the aggessor hits the deck.

As far as kicks go, stomping a fallen aggressor's ankle, elbow, knee or hand is a good idea to guarantee my chances of a successful withdrawl.

The terms "fight" and "fair" are mutually exclusive...

[vulcan]

No such thing as a "fair fight", if a situation degrades to when physical violence is warranted, the idea is to end it asap with the least amount of damage to my body. I was told a long time ago, Kick em where they hurt or squeeze em where they squirt! A well placed kick to the goonies is effective( ask my ex girlfriend), I Couldn't stand straight for hours!

[chris93473]

to me a kick to the groin is just like a poke to the eye. jam ur finger to his eye socket and pull out his eye.

[richhelton84]

I'm not much of a fighter, but I have been in my fair share of fights. When I was about 15 years old, we lived in Puerto Rico (my father was in the Coast Guard), and we were the only "gringos" in the entire neighborhood.

One fight in particular, I was knocked to the ground (well, that happened in most of them ). Anyway, I used my strong leg to kick the inside of the guy's right knee outward, and his knee snapped like a twig. I didn't hit him that hard, and it was completely on accident that I found out how to ruin someone's knee. The kid couldn't walk for weeks, but I never had trouble with him again. Shots to the nuts are extremely effective, but I just love kicking the inside of the knee.

If someone picks a fight with you, you shouldn't stop until they either don't want to get up (or are unable to), or they are unconscious. You shouldn't look for a fight, but when you are forced to, you gotta go "balls-to-the-wall".

Rich