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April 4, 2010, 10:20 AM | #1 |
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Can a treaty ratified by the Senate trump the U.S. Constitution?
Can a treaty ratified by the Senate trump the U.S. Constitution? This point comes up from time to time in discussions regarding possible new treaties, and possible new approaches to regulate guns. Most people think a treaty would not be superior in authority to the provisions of the Constitution. Most people, however, have apparently not read the Constitution (or, at least they have not read it thoroughly enough.) Conservatives have been concerned about the "treaty supremacy" problem of Article 6 of the United States Constitution for about 60 years, but no successful effort has ever been mounted to ammend that article.
Article 6 states that treaties made pursuant to the mechanisms described in the constitution, (2/3 Senate ratification) are the supreme law of the land: "All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation. This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any state to the Contrary notwithstanding. The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. " There is a 200 year history of case law that deals with the issue of National Supremacy as elucidated in Article 6, including but by no means limited to the following examples. Ware v. Hylton, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 199 (1796): "the Supreme Court held that the supremacy clause rendered null and void a state constitutional or statutory provision which was inconsistent with a treaty executed by the Federal Government" Furthermore, from Martin v. Hunter's Lessee, 14 U.S. (1 Wheat.) 304, 335 (1816). State courts have both the power and the duty to enforce obligations arising under federal law, unless Congress gives the federal courts exclusive jurisdiction. Claflin v. Houseman, 93 U.S. 130 (1876); Second Employers' Liability Cases, 223 U.S. 1 (1912); Testa v. Katt, 330 U.S. 386 (1947): ''[it] is imperative upon the state judges, in their official and not merely in their private capacities. From the very nature of their judicial duties, they would be called upon to pronounce the law applicable to the case in judgment. They were not to decide merely according to the laws or Constitution of the State, but according to the laws and treaties of the United States--'the supreme law of the land'.''
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April 4, 2010, 10:28 AM | #2 |
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Looks like a job for Diana and the Supremes to figure out.
If there is conflict between the Constitution and some law, then it's the role of the judiciary to hash it out.
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April 4, 2010, 10:32 AM | #3 |
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Unless I'm mistaken, a bill (or two) recently ratified by the Senate and the House of Representatives forces nearly every American citizen to purchase a health insurance policy.
An argument could be made that such Senate and House ratifications trump the Bill of Rights...oops, a number of States Attorneys General beat me to it! Just sayin'
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April 4, 2010, 10:36 AM | #4 |
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Actually, I thought that the impending lawsuit from the various State Attorneys-General was likely to win and invalidate that recent law (or two). However, when I looked up this issue of treaties trumping the Constitution, and i started reading the case law, I was a little surprised to find that most of the caselaw does in fact suggest that the Federal government can, if enacted properly through Congress, make a law that forces us to buy health insurance. The issue will come down to the distinction between the commerce clause and the 10th Ammendment.
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April 4, 2010, 10:44 AM | #5 |
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If any of you happen to have the book, "None Dare Call it Treason" by John A. Stormer on your bookshelf, re-read Chapter XIII, particularly starting on page 221. The author discusses the issue of "treaty supremacy" and Article 6. If you don't have that book, you might want to look around for it. There were at least 36 million copies printed, in 15 (or more) printings. My copy is from 1964 and I got it for free at a book exchange in 8th grade.
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April 4, 2010, 11:10 AM | #6 |
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If the senate makes a treaty with a foreign power that infringes on my rights AND my congressman and president don't get a chance to fight it then I will not voluntarily abide by it.
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April 4, 2010, 11:55 AM | #7 |
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...your congressman and your president? Fight it? Are you under the impression that they are on your side? LOL!!
Look there's only, what? 535 of them to bribe? Thats only hundreds of million dollars, not much by todays standards. They stand to make hundreds of billions or more if they can sell us out. We will have to fight to keep our country. |
April 4, 2010, 01:43 PM | #8 |
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There are later SCOTUS cases from the 1950's that it was ruled that treaties post ratification cannot trump the Constitution because the authority to make treaty comes from the Constitution. And for that treaty to have authority, it must comply with the US Constitution, if by incident that it is approved by the Senate the USC would still trump it. Only treaties and contracts in place PRIOR to the US Constitution must be honored and can trump our charter of government.
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April 4, 2010, 02:53 PM | #9 | |
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+1 Excellent post. |
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April 4, 2010, 05:29 PM | #10 |
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The Weeks-McLean Act of 1913 was a law designed (among other things) to regulate hunting of migratory birds throughout the U.S. It was challenged as interfering with States rights (10th amendment claims) and began failing in one Circuit decision after another.
Fearing that the law would become completely invalidated at the judicial level, the Congress empowered the State Dept. to negotiate with the United Kingdom (for Canada) for a treaty to regulate migratory birds (this was later expanded by a treaty with Mexico and other central and south American countries). After the Treaty was ratified and came into being, the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 was passed. The law, based upon the treaty, was reasoned that the new powers of Congress, were given by Treaty and was therefore lawful under Art VI. The State of Missouri then sued the federal government (Missouri v. Holland, 252 U.S. 416) for violating the tenth amendment (the basis for the successful Weeks-McLean challenges). However, the SCOTUS held that the federal government's ability to make treaties is supreme over any state concerns about such treaties having abrogated any states' rights arising under the Tenth Amendment. This was also the first time a certain phrase was used, and it was coined by Justice Holmes, as he referred to the "living constitution." While it may be said that the treaty did not violate the constitution, it did give the Congress a power it did not hold before. The SCOTUS acknowledged this. So while the Court in the 50's and 60's might have implied (said in dicta) that a treaty may not violate the constitution, Holland has never been overturned. It can certainly be said that granting a new power to the Congress, without an express amendment, is a violation of that constitution. So Holland stands alone and in tension with later Court decisions. |
April 4, 2010, 07:41 PM | #11 |
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Thank you antipitas, that was an excellent post.
I am curious however about the "later rulings"?
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April 4, 2010, 10:31 PM | #12 | ||
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In 2004 the World Court intervened on behalf of a Mexican national who was sentenced to death in Texas after he murdered two little girls. The World Court ordered The US to re-open the case. President George W. Bush in turn ordered the state of Texas to re-open the case. Texas refused to comply. The murderer appealed to SCOTUS citing the order of the World Court. The murderer and Bush were over-ruled by SCOTUS; 6-3. http://www.jbs.org/index.php/jbs-new...-the-president Quote:
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April 4, 2010, 10:58 PM | #13 | |
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Doesn't mean what you think it does, thallub.
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Congress never passed any laws to comply. If they had.... |
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April 5, 2010, 07:56 AM | #14 |
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Which particular treaty is of concern at the moment anyway? You know, the federal government used to make treaties with the Indians (but usually didn't keep them). Should the federal government enter into treaties with states?
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April 5, 2010, 08:47 AM | #15 | ||
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April 5, 2010, 08:52 AM | #16 | ||
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Anyways, Justice Breyer needs to re-read that clause. It's the clause that says that between any conflicting State law and Federal law that the Federal law always wins out. Not that the Constitution is superseded by a Treaty. BlueTrain, I think there is some UN Treaty that bans handguns or all guns or something of that nature that has the "number-of-guns-on-your-tax-return" people all in a tizzy. There is a locked thread about it. |
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April 5, 2010, 08:55 AM | #17 | |
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While Missouri v. Holland was certainly an interesting test of states' rights, I'm curious whether this ruling would have any bearing on a theoretical treaty that could infringe on the individual rights of US citizens. I don't think this has ever been tested by the SCOTUS. Thoughts?
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April 5, 2010, 10:13 AM | #18 |
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Light background reading....
BlueTrain,
Here are a few quick Wiki's that provide background commentary on this discussion of treaties, beginning with (an interim) draft of one of the Treaties being discussed (date 2006): See especially "Cluster 4" and "Cluster 7" discusses 'disarmament' - http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/20...is3335.doc.htm (cited as footnote #5 in the IANSA Wiki, 2008) Note in the third sentence where it states: "The draft was approved by a vote of 139 in favour to 1 against ( United States), with 24 abstentions (see Annex X)." (emphasis added) The US representative to the UN at the time was this fellow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R._Bolton A quick description of the benefits of such Treaties, courtesy of one of the architects - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Peters And the organization working within the UN structure to promote such Treaties - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna..._on_Small_Arms (see especially the footnotes.) Anyone who thinks the entire Treaty issue is farfetched ought to read the history leading up to what occurred in Australia. Gun owners in Australia have gone on record noting that it did not occur overnight. Although no treaties were involved in that case, it may reasonably be inferred that IANSA is interested in pursuing similar outcomes more globally. As to whether treaties such as the one above would be binding on US citizens or not, I suspect that there are very few precedents to examine. FWIW.
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Treat everyone you meet with dignity and respect....but have a plan to kill them just in case. Last edited by Doc Intrepid; April 5, 2010 at 10:33 AM. |
April 5, 2010, 10:32 AM | #19 |
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I agree with you Doc Intrepid. No idea is far fetched to this administration with its goals and agendas. One only has to look at what plans were hatched just to get the health bill passed. First it was the super majority 60 votes, then when that was lost because of the Scott Brown win it became a simple majority of 50 +1. When the House was in danger of growing a spine and rejecting this bill it became a up or down vote on the previous vote and not the bill itself, then it became the invocation of the Slaughter rule, etc, etc, etc. With that going on I would put nothing past them.
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April 5, 2010, 11:02 AM | #20 | |
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IMHO in this political climate, it's extraordinarily unlikely that the administration can muster a 2/3 majority of Senators to vote "Yea" on a treaty that would substantially infringe on the RKBA. OTOH I still think it's important to read the details of any treaty proposal very carefully, particularly with regards to Mexico. A Mexican treaty offers more potential carrots to dangle in front of left-leaning Republican senators than a UN treaty would.
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April 5, 2010, 11:34 AM | #21 |
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Curious CarGuyChris what distinguishes a Mexican Treaty from other treaties? Would they both not be considered a treaty with a foreign country regardless of whether it is Mexico or Russia? Could you elaborate on what makes one different over the other. I am guessing that because it is Mexico there is a danger of being able to get the 2/3rds vote and there may be a anti-gun clause imbedded somewhere in there. Am I on the right track?
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April 5, 2010, 12:13 PM | #22 | ||
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April 5, 2010, 01:29 PM | #23 | |
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OTOH any UN / European arms deal is more likely to be straightforward, with fewer grey areas about what the treaty says and what it's intended to accomplish. Unlike the Mexicans, the Europeans are not under crushing domestic pressure to show that they can control their own borders and maintain law and order. They don't need the treaty to succeed. Their politicians are likely to score just as many (if not more) political points at home if the treaty is rejected by the US Senate. ("Tut tut tut, we tried our best, but you know those crazy American cowboys...") Furthermore, some European countries have substantial arms exporting industries but tight gun controls at home; such countries may purposefully insert "poison pill" provisions into the treaty to guarantee US Senate rejection, allowing them to take a "Tough on Guns" stance with liberal voters while simultaneously keeping the gun factories humming and their labor unions happy.
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April 6, 2010, 10:21 AM | #24 |
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State of Missouri v. Holland, U.S. Game Warden, 252 U.S. 416.
Mr. Justice Holmes, for the majority: ... If the treaty is valid, there can be no dispute about the validity of the statute under Article I, ยง 8, as a necessary and proper means to execute the powers of the Government. ...Now contrast the above with what Justice Black wrote in Reid v. Covert: The obvious and decisive answer to this, of course, is that no agreement with a foreign nation can confer power on the Congress, or on any other branch of Government, which is free from the restraints of the Constitution. ...Both Courts are using the assumption that if something is not expressly prohibited, then it is permitted. That is directly at odds with what the 10th amendment says: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.As long as the Court (and the Congress) hold to the idea that the government can do whatever it wants, as long as it is not "inconsistent" (that is, the Constitution does not expressly prohibit the action) with the Constitution, then we are at peril. |
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