.204 32 gr VMax: I'm worried.

[bow shot]

uncyboo: No, haven't shot the sierras yet (03-30-2010). Its killing me too. I have both 32 and 39 SBKs ready to shoot, loaded from min to just short of max in 5 shot sets.

WIN71: what do the .265 and .295 figures mean?

It killing me,they have been sitting on the "bench" for a week now. Weather has been bad; either high winds, rain or snow.

At this point, Friday looks good, maybe even tonight if I can get home at a decent time and the rain quits.

I may do a long range test first with one round from each set (http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...19#Post1713419)

That would leave me 4 rounds in each set if I decide to tank it and go back to 100 yard group testing.

[bow shot]

I should mention that I've had best success with Fed 205M primers so far (also have tried CCI sm rifle magnum, and Rem 7.5 BR), so I will be sticking with them.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by bow shot

It killing me,they have been sitting on the "bench" for a week now. Weather has been bad; either high winds, rain or snow.

Ah, the wonders of central NY! 60F one day, snowing the next and 70F 3 days later!

You know what they say! If you don't like the weather in NY, just wait a minute, it'll probably get worse!

[mrawesome22]

Ah, the wonders of central NY! 60F one day, snowing the next and 70F 3 days later!

You know what they say! If you don't like the weather in NY, just wait a minute, it'll probably get worse!

Everyone knows that's Ohio's motto...

[Brian Pfleuger]

Everyone knows that's Ohio's motto...

I suspect that it's likely the motto of the entire North-East quadrant of the US!

[uncyboo]

WIN71: what do the .265 and .295 figures mean?

I think those are the group sizes for the Bergers he's tried. That's what I got out of it anyway.

[bow shot]

..group size... how the heck did I miss that???

Definately because of the NY weather!! I think the NYS gubmint runs it because it only snows when I have to work on the car or shoot. It will be nice outside if I get stuck at work till after dark. It will rain if I touch a fishing rod.

No wind if the black flies or skeeters are ferocious. Heavy wind if I try to get in a tree stand.

[WIN71]

WIN71: what do the .265 and .295 figures mean?

It is group size. The best 3 shot groups with each powder and all of the bullets I tried. Once I realized higher speed=accuracy, at least in this rifle, I used a near maximum charge to start working up from.

As you would expect, I have quite a few assorted brands and weights of bullets left to shoot up. I'm stockpiling Sierra 32's for the future however I just ordered 250 of the 26 gr. Barnes. I haven't really worked a load up for it. I've only used the same load I used for the 30 gr. Bergers to test primers.

[bow shot]

WIN71: What was your experience with the 30gr Bergers, I'm very interested (because they are the only Bergers that I can get in my area)

[Unclenick]

On your 6" groups, the tight group followed by a flier is a bit puzzling? Typically, when a barrel is shot out, the first symptom you get is unaccountable fliers, though they are not normally that gross. Did the fliers show any indication of keyholing?

I would suggest several things:

Check headspace and barrel nut tightness.

Make a chamber casting or at least measure the fired cases carefully to make sure the diameters are not indicating the chamber is oversize?

Fire ten rounds with the headstamps all oriented at 12:00. Measure the group size and fliers. Then neck size them and reload them and, if need be, bend them to get near zero runout, then fire them all again with that same headstamp orientation. Does the group get tighter? If so, you have an off-axis chamber.

Slug the bore. You can get a small Hornady pure lead ball and roll it between flat surfaces until it is about .206" wide, then use it to slug the bore. The slug should be measured with an OD thimble micrometer that resolves ten thousandths. A caliper is not precise or repeatable enough. Enco has one on sale for $14 currently, though it is backordered. You will be feeling for constrictions during slugging. At measuring, you want to make sure not only that the bore is within spec, but that all the lands and grooves are the same height. I've twice run into barrels where they were not, and keyholing was the main symptom.

If you can reach it, seat a bullet out until it touches the lands. Put magic marker on it and touch them again. Look for any asymmetry of contact.

[WIN71]

I liked them fine. They shot a little better than the 35 gr. Berger. If I could get them as cheap as the 32 gr. Sierra's I'd use them. Those 30's and 32's shot almost exactly the same.

This 204 is performing quite a bit differently than other calibers I've worked with. I have been working up loads for varmint rifles sense 1974 starting with a 243 then .222, 22-250, and hornet. Lastly this 204. All the other rifles had their favorite loads with a specific bullet. This 204 seems to shoot almost every bullet very good. Except for the V-Max.

I was pleasantly surprised when this last go around with the 26 gr. Barnes turned out so good. Without even working up a load (I used my best 30 gr. Berger load) the large group with Rem 7 1/2 primers was .510" and with Fed 205M was .295".

[mrawesome22]

Sounds like you guys need a 6PPC.

[bow shot]

LOL, someone had to say that!!!

My wife says the simple solution is to have someone that can shoot get behind the rifle.

Uncle Nick: I'm pretty positive that my 6" groups with the factory ammo were well spread, but all I have to go on is a bad memory squared: ie., 1) my powers of recollection are bad, 2) the event was a bad thing, of which I have recognition.

Thanks for the troubleshooting guides, I intend to use them. I have access to a good (0.0001) Mic., I'll have to get the lead.

I bought this rifle used, so "any of the above" so to speak is a possibility. There's a well aged gunsmith within an hour of my home, I know I really should schedle an appointment. I just hope he doesn't see me as an easy mark.

[mrawesome22]

I just hope he doesn't see me as an easy mark.

If he's an honest man, he'll probably say there ain't much I can do for ya' sonny.
But I suspect that he's gonna wanna do all kinds of stuff, lapping, truing, new barrel.... and after all that, and $1000 later, it may shoot worse.

[bow shot]

My avoidance gene is warning me against spending unpredictable amounts of $ for unpredictable results. I've been know to ignore that though, LOL!

If it is the case that the rifle is nasty, I'll rest and be happy with my 0.5" groups and say, "hey, that'll do!".

So far I have $600 in the purchase price, and then the cost of refined loading/measuring tools, which I'd "need" any way. The only other cost has been the price of loading about 900 rounds, which has ranged 25-35 cents a crack, so @ appx 1000 rounds, 30 c each, call that $300.

So beside the tools, that would have been $900 toward a different rifle... That bums me a bit.

[uncyboo]

But I suspect that he's gonna wanna do all kinds of stuff, lapping, truing, new barrel.... and after all that, and $1000 later, it may shoot worse.

This is true. I asked a local gunsmith about rechambering a Rem 700 from 280 to 280 AI, figuring it would be cut barrel back a thread or two and run a reamer up in there. Hopefully less than $200. "Oh no, we gotta true the action, lap the lugs, bed the action, put on a new trigger, etc. etc...." When asked for total on all that, keeping my factory barrel, "Oh ballpark about $850." I passed.

[uncyboo]

If it is the case that the rifle is nasty, I'll rest and be happy with my 0.5" groups and say, "hey, that'll do!".

You're close bow shot. I think you just need to find the right little tweak, be it rifle or ammo, to get into the 3's. May be as simple as a little touch on the crown, or .2 grains of powder, or a primer swap.

I'm going to get down to some serious development in my .204 as soon as I get this gun show over with this weekend.

[Unclenick]

Bow shot,

When you said 3 or of five will touch and the others are outliers, I thought the 6" factory groups were what you were referring to? Rereading, I see you may have meant your 0.5" groups.

Try one more troubleshooting trick. Measure the ammo runout. Use a Sharpie to mark the top of the case head when the indicator is at one extreme or the other. Then shoot them with that mark at the same place on the clock in the chamber for each round. See if the group size drops any? If so, this is an extreme bullet tipping issue, with bullets somehow swaging into the bore at a bigger angle than is normally possible.

[bow shot]

Uncle Nick:

This may clear things up a bit. Here's my quote and the translation:

haven't gone further with the 40's just because I've invested so much time in the 32's.

The killer for me is that usually 3/5 will touch, and 2/5 will be the outliers.

Ok, what I meant there was that the factory stuff printed 6". The 3/5 touching with 2 outliers is the handloads at their best.

Again, as I recall the factory stuff printed a random-ish group. Sorry for the confusion.

[Unclenick]

Got it. You could try the case orientation thing with commercial ammo, too, to see if has any effect? It would be interesting to spin the bullets.

One other thing: Have you read through Dan Newberry's OCW site? He's got a good approach to systematically finding a good load that might save you some ammo expense?

[bow shot]

Yes, great piece right there. You were the first one to direct me there on one of the other threads. Thanks kindly! I've often bumped my targets that were printed Audette style against the wisdom offered there and saw the equasion between the optimal charge (arrived at the hard way) and the node as I compared where each group landed in relation to each other. Wow, too many words there... I think I know what I'm trying to say?


since I have 5 shot groups ready to shoot (growng mold in the loading blocks), I'll likely start with this method, see what happens, and then return to Newberry's method.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...239#Post216239.

'Or end up replacing the power steering pump or doing something equally sweet...

[bow shot]

Its driving me nuts...

Friday's (04-02-10)the day. "Supposed" to be upper 60s, calm-faint wind.

I may actually begin testing tomorrow if things go right. How often do things go right?

[bow shot]

Today may be the day to shoot. Just gotta get out of work at a decent time.

[bow shot]

Well, the 32 gr SKBs keyholed @ 50yards, and some went into orbit at long range, missing the entire paper-covered 4' x4' pallet. Primers flattened at just above min. charge too. I'm not done with this yet, LOL!!

The 39 gr SKBs printed 0.37" @ 100y.

Funny thing,

1) Before I tested the any SKBs @ 100y, I popped 3 of my 32gr VMax loads down range:. 0.24".

2) When I did a 300y test (OTB style) with the SKBs, I also did a 3 shot group with the 32 gr VMax load: 0.82".

I'll post pics tomorrow, I'm on dial-up here at home. I'd like comments on the flattened primers once you folks get a chance to see the pics.

[mrawesome22]

Well, the 32 gr SKBs keyholed @ 50yards, and some went into orbit at long range, missing the entire paper-covered 4' x4' pallet.

Wow. Bad batch of bullets perhaps?