Converting Garand to use BAR magazines.

Woody · October 15, 1999, 02:28 AM

I read about a guy that was converting Garands to use the BAR magazines awhile ago and I can't remember who it was or how to contact them. If any one knows about this could you post there info?
Thanks, Woody

oberkommando · October 15, 1999, 04:09 AM

Sorry i dont know, but would like to and if this conversion is reliable, saw BAR semi for sale awhile ago from ohio ordanance but heard horror stories about quality at 2500 or so it should have worked. Just another example of my bitching about quality control.

Who is john galt?

James K · October 15, 1999, 04:04 PM

I have seen several (though possibly not the latest) such conversions. None I have seen have been much good. A lot of the M1 receiver has to be cut away and the trigger guard heavily modified. In my experience, accuracy is poor, and reliability is a joke. Plus, you will have ruined a good rifle to make what?

One might note that two 20 round mags fired rapid fire will cut the life of an M1 barrel in half; four magazines will ruin it completely.

They make an M1 with a 20 round magazine, called the M1A, in 7.62 caliber. If you want that capability, buy one.

Jim

John Lawson · October 18, 1999, 09:53 AM

The U.S. Rifle cal.30 T-44 was the Experimental Garand modified to accept BAR magazines. This was circa 1953, and the test models functioned as well as the original Garands. The one I saw was modified at TEWOS. I have seen others made by private shops that were not reliable. It helps to have all of the heavy machinery of an Ordnance Depot when you undertake a task of this kind.
In Korea, when there were massed attacks, the Garand barrels were regularly burned out, using 8 round clips. But, don't fault the G.I.'s for some rapid fire against "hordes" of Chinese! (How many platoons are there in a "horde", anyway?)

**4V50 Gary** · October 18, 1999, 03:00 PM

John Garand himself did some conversions and found that it wasn't as straightforward as it seems.

For one thing, the desired purpose was twofold: selective fire and secondly, common BAR magazine used so as to simplify logistics. Well, the BAR mag didn't feed reliably since the M1 Bolt was too fast. The spring would have to be changed (then it wouldn't be reliable with the BAR) or the M1 Garand receiver lengthened 1/4" so as to give the bolt more space to travel - hence more travel time. Remington Engineers resolved this problem by putting in a inertia rod in the op-rod to slow it down. This worked, but by that time, interest had passed. Too bad it wasn't semi-auto only.
But, as Jim said, rapid fire is the easiest way to promote barrel wear and none of us here (Gale McMillan excepted) is into replacing barrels on a regular basis.

------------------
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

John Lawson · October 21, 1999, 04:59 PM

I have fired many rounds through 3 different M-1 rifles altered to use BAR magazines and all worked flawlessly. One was by Juan Erquiaga (when Gun World Magazine was sponsoring him in the ';60's) one was by Golden State Arms and one was by Beretta.
All of these rifles were semi auto only. All fired the .308 ctg., which bypassed problems found with the .30-06 rounds.
The way the T-39-44 series overcame the problems was by using the short cartridge (not yet officially adopted as 7.62) AND by using a gas regulator system.
The ORIGINAL concept was NOT a full auto capability; it was a method of modernizing the thousands of surplus Garands to use a higher capacity magazine. Erquiaga was selling conversions and his main market was South America.
It was the U.S. Military who wanted the full auto capability, to replace both the Garand and BAR. Shooters and mercenaries wanted something that fired, and semi auto was fine in those days.
Some of the above mentioned rifles still exist.
The best BAR ever made was Colt's version, a takedown model called "the Monitor." Unfortunately, not many were made and many went to the Treasury Dept.
The respondent above was absolutely correct in his reply about problems with the .30-06 round in the Garand, fed from BAR magazines. In the original posting, you did not specify the cartridge. Some of the conversions of the Garand used M-14 magazines.

**4V50 Gary** · October 21, 1999, 11:13 PM

Neglected to mention that some BAR mag conversions were displayed at the Springfield Armory National Historic Site in Springfield, Mass. If you like guns, do make an effort to stop by.

------------------
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

orsogato · October 23, 1999, 06:59 PM

Why ruin a perfectly good Garand? If you want a detachable box mag m1 buy either:

1. An m1a (m14 type) weapon or;
2. A BM-59 (Italian Service rifle which was built on modified Garands)

both rifle are in 7.62 NATO (.308)

Note: a 150 grain .308 is ballistically the same as a .30-06 (maybe 150-250 fps slower thats all)

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October 15, 1999, 02:28 AM	#1
Woody Member Join Date: September 13, 1999 Posts: 95	I read about a guy that was converting Garands to use the BAR magazines awhile ago and I can't remember who it was or how to contact them. If any one knows about this could you post there info? Thanks, Woody

October 15, 1999, 04:09 AM	#2
oberkommando Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 1999 Posts: 1,158	Sorry i dont know, but would like to and if this conversion is reliable, saw BAR semi for sale awhile ago from ohio ordanance but heard horror stories about quality at 2500 or so it should have worked. Just another example of my bitching about quality control. Who is john galt?

October 15, 1999, 04:04 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I have seen several (though possibly not the latest) such conversions. None I have seen have been much good. A lot of the M1 receiver has to be cut away and the trigger guard heavily modified. In my experience, accuracy is poor, and reliability is a joke. Plus, you will have ruined a good rifle to make what? One might note that two 20 round mags fired rapid fire will cut the life of an M1 barrel in half; four magazines will ruin it completely. They make an M1 with a 20 round magazine, called the M1A, in 7.62 caliber. If you want that capability, buy one. Jim

October 18, 1999, 09:53 AM	#4
John Lawson Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 1999 Posts: 281	The U.S. Rifle cal.30 T-44 was the Experimental Garand modified to accept BAR magazines. This was circa 1953, and the test models functioned as well as the original Garands. The one I saw was modified at TEWOS. I have seen others made by private shops that were not reliable. It helps to have all of the heavy machinery of an Ordnance Depot when you undertake a task of this kind. In Korea, when there were massed attacks, the Garand barrels were regularly burned out, using 8 round clips. But, don't fault the G.I.'s for some rapid fire against "hordes" of Chinese! (How many platoons are there in a "horde", anyway?)

October 18, 1999, 03:00 PM	#5
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	John Garand himself did some conversions and found that it wasn't as straightforward as it seems. For one thing, the desired purpose was twofold: selective fire and secondly, common BAR magazine used so as to simplify logistics. Well, the BAR mag didn't feed reliably since the M1 Bolt was too fast. The spring would have to be changed (then it wouldn't be reliable with the BAR) or the M1 Garand receiver lengthened 1/4" so as to give the bolt more space to travel - hence more travel time. Remington Engineers resolved this problem by putting in a inertia rod in the op-rod to slow it down. This worked, but by that time, interest had passed. Too bad it wasn't semi-auto only. But, as Jim said, rapid fire is the easiest way to promote barrel wear and none of us here (Gale McMillan excepted) is into replacing barrels on a regular basis. ------------------ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

October 21, 1999, 04:59 PM	#6
John Lawson Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 1999 Posts: 281	I have fired many rounds through 3 different M-1 rifles altered to use BAR magazines and all worked flawlessly. One was by Juan Erquiaga (when Gun World Magazine was sponsoring him in the ';60's) one was by Golden State Arms and one was by Beretta. All of these rifles were semi auto only. All fired the .308 ctg., which bypassed problems found with the .30-06 rounds. The way the T-39-44 series overcame the problems was by using the short cartridge (not yet officially adopted as 7.62) AND by using a gas regulator system. The ORIGINAL concept was NOT a full auto capability; it was a method of modernizing the thousands of surplus Garands to use a higher capacity magazine. Erquiaga was selling conversions and his main market was South America. It was the U.S. Military who wanted the full auto capability, to replace both the Garand and BAR. Shooters and mercenaries wanted something that fired, and semi auto was fine in those days. Some of the above mentioned rifles still exist. The best BAR ever made was Colt's version, a takedown model called "the Monitor." Unfortunately, not many were made and many went to the Treasury Dept. The respondent above was absolutely correct in his reply about problems with the .30-06 round in the Garand, fed from BAR magazines. In the original posting, you did not specify the cartridge. Some of the conversions of the Garand used M-14 magazines.

October 21, 1999, 11:13 PM	#7
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Neglected to mention that some BAR mag conversions were displayed at the Springfield Armory National Historic Site in Springfield, Mass. If you like guns, do make an effort to stop by. ------------------ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

October 23, 1999, 06:59 PM	#8
orsogato Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 1999 Location: Steeler Country Posts: 628	Why ruin a perfectly good Garand? If you want a detachable box mag m1 buy either: 1. An m1a (m14 type) weapon or; 2. A BM-59 (Italian Service rifle which was built on modified Garands) both rifle are in 7.62 NATO (.308) Note: a 150 grain .308 is ballistically the same as a .30-06 (maybe 150-250 fps slower thats all)