38 Smith & Wesson regulation police

The Pinto Kid · November 24, 2013, 02:58 PM

I have a Smith & Wesson regulation police 38 five shot double action revolver. I was told it is a I-frame but I cannot find anything on the Internet about a I-frame. So my question is is this correct

Nick_C_S · November 24, 2013, 03:03 PM

I've owned Smiths for 30 years. I've never heard of an "I" frame. There's "J" frames, and they're 5-shot guns.

dahermit · November 24, 2013, 03:09 PM

Quote:

I've owned Smiths for 30 years. I've never heard of an "I" frame. There's "J" frames, and they're 5-shot guns.

If you had owned Smiths for 50 years like I have, you would have heard that the I frames were quite common at one time. I have a .32 S&W Long, Hand Ejector, in an I frame.

P5 Guy · November 24, 2013, 03:11 PM

"M", "I", "J", "J MAGNUM" "K", "L", "N" and the "X" are the frame sizes thru S&W's history.
The "M" was the original Ladysmith in 22.
The "I" lead to the "J" and are roughly the same size. Which evolved into the "J MAGNUM" in 1997.
So yes there was a Smith "I" frame and it is rather old I'd like to see a photo if you have the time to post one or three.

ckpj99 · November 24, 2013, 03:13 PM

Not to be rude, but did you try Google? http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421446
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson - check the list of frame sizes under "Notable Revolvers"

And Nick_C_S, the I-frame was totally a thing.

The way I understand it is that the I-Frame was the predecessor to the J-Frame. It's slightly smaller than the J-Frame, which is the smallest frame size currently made S&W.

It's important to note that the most common forms of .38 ammunition are not safe to fire in your gun. It's chambered in .38 S&W, which is still available, but much less common than .38 Special.

DPris · November 24, 2013, 04:37 PM

Exactly right- the I-Frame led to the J-Frame.
I had a 1927 Regulation Police, most definitely an I-Frame.
Denis

Webleymkv · November 24, 2013, 04:57 PM

The I-Frame was the predecessor to the J-Frame and is mainly found in .32 S&W Long and .38 S&W calibers. I-Frames were not made in .38 Special because their frame window is too short to accommodate a .38 Special cylinder. In 1950, S&W introduced the then-new J-Frame Chief's Special (later designated the Model 36) which was basically an I-Frame elongated just enough to accommodate a .38 Special cylinder. In 1997, the J-Frame was further elongated to accommodate a .357 Magnum length cylinder and from that point on, even smaller calibers were made on the new "Magnum" J-Frame.

Even after the introduction of the J-Frame, the I-Frame continued to be produced until 1961 at which point the remaining I-Frame models (by that point designated Models 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, and 35) were redesignated with a -1 and produced on the J-Frame.

The .38 Regulation police was introduced on the I-Frame in 1917 and, as has been mentioned, was chambered for the obsolescent .38 S&W cartridge which is older, shorter, slightly larger in diameter, and much lower in power and pressure than the more well-known .38 Special. The .38 Regulation Police had a square-butt grip and is usually found with either a 3" or 4" barrel unlike its cousin the Terrier which has a round butt and 2" barrel. In 1957, the .38 Regulation Police was redesignated as the Model 33 and, beginning with the M33-1 in 1961, built on the J-Frame. The M33/.38 Regulation Police and the M32/Terrier were both discontinued in 1974.

The .38 S&W cartridge, though once quite popular, has been obsolescent for decades as it was gradually superseded in popularity by the .38 Special. It consists of a .775" straight-walled, rimmed case loaded with a .360-.362" bullet as opposed to the .357-.359" bullet of most other .38 caliber revolvers. It is also quite low pressure with a SAAMI maximum of 14,500 psi as opposed to the 17,000 psi maximum of a standard pressure .38 Special. While no new guns have been chambered for this cartridge for decades, factory ammunition is still available from several makers including Remington, Winchester, Magtech, and Fiocchi. A typical factory load for this cartridge will consist of a 145-146 gr LRN bullet at roughly 680 fps. A variant of the cartridge was used by British Commonwealth military and police forces in Webley, Enfield, and S&W revolvers. This variant is known by several names including .380 Revolver Mk. I/Mk. II/ Mk. IIz or .38-200. It consisted of either a 200gr LRN or 178gr FMJ bullet at roughly 600fps.

If you handload, several people have reported good results by using standard .358" HBWC bullets seated to the same OAL as a factory LRN. While the bullet is undersize, the hollow base supposedly obturates enough to grip the rifling well and give satisfactory accuracy. I cannot personally attest to this practice, however, as my handloading of the cartridge has been primarily focused on 200gr LRN bullets to replicate British military loads in my Webley Mk. IV.

ckpj99 · November 24, 2013, 08:59 PM

It's also worth noting that there was also an M-frame, which was even smaller than the I-frame. I believe these are even more rare, and not especially good.

So there are:

M-frame - smallest, a very early design
I-frame - smaller than J-frame, led to J-frame
J-frame - smallest modern frame
K-frame - common medium frame revolver, usually chambered in .38 special, but also available in .22 and other calibers, no longer made
L-frame - the modern medium frame revolver, a slightly larger K-frame built to accommodate the slightly longer and more powerful .357 magnum, but also chambered in other calibers
N-frame - large frame revolver built to handle .44 magnum and other big bore rounds, but also available in .357
X-frame - a newer frame from S&W built to handle the .500 magnum
Z-frame - the designation of the frame used for the Governor, S&W .410 shot shell/.45 Colt revolver (a response to the Taurus Judge)

The only outlier is the new Bodyguard, which is a polymer J-frame, but has some pretty significant design differences that I think put it in its own category.

James K · November 24, 2013, 09:33 PM

The M frame was used for only one gun, the .22 Caliber "Ladysmith" revolver, not to be confused with the recent .38 Special caliber revolvers of the same name.

The I frame was used originally for revolvers in .32 S&W and .38 S&W. The last .38 model regularly listed was a short barrel version called the Terrier. The Regulation Police had a wood grip that was filled out to make a square butt, though the frame itself was round butt. The Regulation Police was unique in that it had a "step" in the backstrap, apparently to better support the wood grip, and the serial number was on the front grip strap rather than on the bottom of the grip. If the gun has a straight backstrap and the serial number on the bottom, it is a .38 Hand Ejector, not a Regulation Police.

Jim

bedbugbilly · November 24, 2013, 09:42 PM

Pistol Kid - I don't have any information for you but I'd sure like to see a photo of your S & W . . . .

carguychris · November 24, 2013, 11:17 PM

Quote:

The Regulation Police was unique in that it had a "step" in the backstrap, apparently to better support the wood grip, and the serial number was on the front grip strap rather than on the bottom of the grip. If the gun has a straight backstrap and the serial number on the bottom, it is a .38 Hand Ejector, not a Regulation Police.

I'm not certain this is correct. AFAIK S&W did not produce a revolver called the .38 Hand Ejector; I think you may have it confused with the .32 Hand Ejector and .32 Regulation Police.

Furthermore, the post-WWII .38 Regulation Police aka pre-Model 33 was reportedly only built using a shouldered, frontstrap-serial frame until S&W's stockpile of prewar frames was used up. After this, AFAIK it was built using a conventional square-butt frame with the serial on the butt. I've examined several Model 33's, and they were all square-butt.

I concur that the M frame .22HE had basically no relation to the closely-related I and J frames. Notably, the M frame cylinder is opened using one of two systems not found on any other S&W revolver: a frame-mounted push-button (1st Model) or a pull-release knob on the barrel locking lug (2nd and 3rd Model). FWIW the M frame was only offered with a 7-shot cylinder in .22 Long (not .22LR).

Clark · November 25, 2013, 06:15 PM

An I frame restoration video with a soundtrack of the Bonanza theme.... then Rawhide.... then the good the bad and the ugly....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twxy-MNyTfc

James K · November 25, 2013, 06:43 PM

Hi, Chris,

There is some confusion, partly due to an error on my part. The gun usually called the "Military and Police or M&P and chambered for .38 Special was called by S&W the ".38 Hand Ejector Military and Police", and built on the K frame. But the gun we call the .38 Regulation Police, built on the I frame, was officially called the ".38 Hand Ejector Regulation Police", and was chambered for .38 S&W. There was a 2" barrel version called the .38/32 Terrier; it was made only with a round butt and had the standard I frame round butt without a step in the rear grip strap.

But there was also a .32 Regulation Police built on the I frame that was not quite the same as the .32 Hand Ejector and the grips are not interchangeable with the normal .32 HE. It was that gun I was thinking of when I said the HE grips would not fit the RP.

Both the .32 and the .38 RP models have the stepped backstrap and the serial number on the front strap. The stocks of the .32 and .38 models are interchangeable one to the other, but the RP (.32 or .38) grips are different.

Jim

November 24, 2013, 02:58 PM	#1
The Pinto Kid Junior Member Join Date: November 23, 2013 Posts: 2	38 Smith & Wesson regulation police I have a Smith & Wesson regulation police 38 five shot double action revolver. I was told it is a I-frame but I cannot find anything on the Internet about a I-frame. So my question is is this correct

November 24, 2013, 03:03 PM	#2
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,523	I've owned Smiths for 30 years. I've never heard of an "I" frame. There's "J" frames, and they're 5-shot guns. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

November 24, 2013, 09:42 PM	#10
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Pistol Kid - I don't have any information for you but I'd sure like to see a photo of your S & W . . . . __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

November 25, 2013, 06:15 PM	#12
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	An I frame restoration video with a soundtrack of the Bonanza theme.... then Rawhide.... then the good the bad and the ugly.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twxy-MNyTfc __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

November 24, 2013, 03:11 PM	#4
P5 Guy Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 1,804	"M", "I", "J", "J MAGNUM" "K", "L", "N" and the "X" are the frame sizes thru S&W's history. The "M" was the original Ladysmith in 22. The "I" lead to the "J" and are roughly the same size. Which evolved into the "J MAGNUM" in 1997. So yes there was a Smith "I" frame and it is rather old I'd like to see a photo if you have the time to post one or three.

November 24, 2013, 03:13 PM	#5
ckpj99 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 386	Not to be rude, but did you try Google? http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421446 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson - check the list of frame sizes under "Notable Revolvers" And Nick_C_S, the I-frame was totally a thing. The way I understand it is that the I-Frame was the predecessor to the J-Frame. It's slightly smaller than the J-Frame, which is the smallest frame size currently made S&W. It's important to note that the most common forms of .38 ammunition are not safe to fire in your gun. It's chambered in .38 S&W, which is still available, but much less common than .38 Special.

November 24, 2013, 04:37 PM	#6
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Exactly right- the I-Frame led to the J-Frame. I had a 1927 Regulation Police, most definitely an I-Frame. Denis

November 24, 2013, 04:57 PM	#7
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	The I-Frame was the predecessor to the J-Frame and is mainly found in .32 S&W Long and .38 S&W calibers. I-Frames were not made in .38 Special because their frame window is too short to accommodate a .38 Special cylinder. In 1950, S&W introduced the then-new J-Frame Chief's Special (later designated the Model 36) which was basically an I-Frame elongated just enough to accommodate a .38 Special cylinder. In 1997, the J-Frame was further elongated to accommodate a .357 Magnum length cylinder and from that point on, even smaller calibers were made on the new "Magnum" J-Frame. Even after the introduction of the J-Frame, the I-Frame continued to be produced until 1961 at which point the remaining I-Frame models (by that point designated Models 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, and 35) were redesignated with a -1 and produced on the J-Frame. The .38 Regulation police was introduced on the I-Frame in 1917 and, as has been mentioned, was chambered for the obsolescent .38 S&W cartridge which is older, shorter, slightly larger in diameter, and much lower in power and pressure than the more well-known .38 Special. The .38 Regulation Police had a square-butt grip and is usually found with either a 3" or 4" barrel unlike its cousin the Terrier which has a round butt and 2" barrel. In 1957, the .38 Regulation Police was redesignated as the Model 33 and, beginning with the M33-1 in 1961, built on the J-Frame. The M33/.38 Regulation Police and the M32/Terrier were both discontinued in 1974. The .38 S&W cartridge, though once quite popular, has been obsolescent for decades as it was gradually superseded in popularity by the .38 Special. It consists of a .775" straight-walled, rimmed case loaded with a .360-.362" bullet as opposed to the .357-.359" bullet of most other .38 caliber revolvers. It is also quite low pressure with a SAAMI maximum of 14,500 psi as opposed to the 17,000 psi maximum of a standard pressure .38 Special. While no new guns have been chambered for this cartridge for decades, factory ammunition is still available from several makers including Remington, Winchester, Magtech, and Fiocchi. A typical factory load for this cartridge will consist of a 145-146 gr LRN bullet at roughly 680 fps. A variant of the cartridge was used by British Commonwealth military and police forces in Webley, Enfield, and S&W revolvers. This variant is known by several names including .380 Revolver Mk. I/Mk. II/ Mk. IIz or .38-200. It consisted of either a 200gr LRN or 178gr FMJ bullet at roughly 600fps. If you handload, several people have reported good results by using standard .358" HBWC bullets seated to the same OAL as a factory LRN. While the bullet is undersize, the hollow base supposedly obturates enough to grip the rifling well and give satisfactory accuracy. I cannot personally attest to this practice, however, as my handloading of the cartridge has been primarily focused on 200gr LRN bullets to replicate British military loads in my Webley Mk. IV.

November 24, 2013, 08:59 PM	#8
ckpj99 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 386	It's also worth noting that there was also an M-frame, which was even smaller than the I-frame. I believe these are even more rare, and not especially good. So there are: M-frame - smallest, a very early design I-frame - smaller than J-frame, led to J-frame J-frame - smallest modern frame K-frame - common medium frame revolver, usually chambered in .38 special, but also available in .22 and other calibers, no longer made L-frame - the modern medium frame revolver, a slightly larger K-frame built to accommodate the slightly longer and more powerful .357 magnum, but also chambered in other calibers N-frame - large frame revolver built to handle .44 magnum and other big bore rounds, but also available in .357 X-frame - a newer frame from S&W built to handle the .500 magnum Z-frame - the designation of the frame used for the Governor, S&W .410 shot shell/.45 Colt revolver (a response to the Taurus Judge) The only outlier is the new Bodyguard, which is a polymer J-frame, but has some pretty significant design differences that I think put it in its own category.

November 24, 2013, 09:33 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The M frame was used for only one gun, the .22 Caliber "Ladysmith" revolver, not to be confused with the recent .38 Special caliber revolvers of the same name. The I frame was used originally for revolvers in .32 S&W and .38 S&W. The last .38 model regularly listed was a short barrel version called the Terrier. The Regulation Police had a wood grip that was filled out to make a square butt, though the frame itself was round butt. The Regulation Police was unique in that it had a "step" in the backstrap, apparently to better support the wood grip, and the serial number was on the front grip strap rather than on the bottom of the grip. If the gun has a straight backstrap and the serial number on the bottom, it is a .38 Hand Ejector, not a Regulation Police. Jim

November 25, 2013, 06:43 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Chris, There is some confusion, partly due to an error on my part. The gun usually called the "Military and Police or M&P and chambered for .38 Special was called by S&W the ".38 Hand Ejector Military and Police", and built on the K frame. But the gun we call the .38 Regulation Police, built on the I frame, was officially called the ".38 Hand Ejector Regulation Police", and was chambered for .38 S&W. There was a 2" barrel version called the .38/32 Terrier; it was made only with a round butt and had the standard I frame round butt without a step in the rear grip strap. But there was also a .32 Regulation Police built on the I frame that was not quite the same as the .32 Hand Ejector and the grips are not interchangeable with the normal .32 HE. It was that gun I was thinking of when I said the HE grips would not fit the RP. Both the .32 and the .38 RP models have the stepped backstrap and the serial number on the front strap. The stocks of the .32 and .38 models are interchangeable one to the other, but the RP (.32 or .38) grips are different. Jim