Bullets sliding out of shell after reloading!

[KBP75]

The die was all the way down. Its a .308 die. No re-sizing of the neck can be done with these dies. The folks at Lee in technical support recommended the Lee Pacesetter 3 die set instead of the Deluxe set because I have several different .308 rifles I shoot. They said the Pacesetter 3 die set will have a crimp die that will solve my problem. All I know is Cabelas is sending me the dies and I will be using the new set by the end of the month. MVC-061S.JPG Here is a picture of the C&H 308 dies! Ken

[Brian Pfleuger]

No crimp die would solve the problem of being able to slide the bullet around in the neck. It might HIDE the problem but it's no solution.

Have you contacted C&H? I'm sure they would provide support and most likely replace your die if its defective.

[KBP75]

Hi Brian! Maybe I don't understand what you mean. If the bullet can be pulled out or pushed in the reloaded shell and the new die set puts a crimp to hold the bullet in place, why is the problem not solved? Size and reload the shell, and put a crimp on it to secure it from moving- problem solved? Why not? New dies, once fired shell and .308 bullet what is the hidden problem?

[Mike / Tx]

KBP,

I guess I read the initial post wrong or came to the wrong conclusion about what the actual issue was. I came to the understanding that the sizing ball on the end of the stem was the main issue, evidently not, after reading further post. I hope all works out well for you with the new set of dies


F. Guffey,

If by the below statement,

I do not chuck stuff up in an electric hand drill with abrasives into my dies and alter my dies, I do have dies I have acquired that have been bubberized, for me? Not a problem, it does not take me long to look at something to determine what Bubba did it his misguided effort.

your referring to what I suggested, I am sorry you feel I am some sort of Bubba, but I NEVER suggested putting the die into a drill or even touching the actual die with anything abrasive.

What I suggested was if the sizing ball was bigger than it should be, one could easily polish it down a bit to the proper dimension.

[TATER]

KBP, The neck should be a consistent Size from the mouth to the shoulder.
A crimp at the mouth of an oversized neck would hold the bullet in place but, That is Not the correct way..
Regardless… Use the new Lee Dies as a set and you should be good..You should not need the crimp die at all.
One Thought!
Is it possible that the seating and expanding steams could be swapped and are in the wrong dies ???

[603Country]

How many times have you reloaded that brass? If you've reloaded them many times and trimmed to length each time, you could run into what I found on some Norma 220 brass many years ago. I shot them a lot, and probably more than I should have, though the brass never complained (by failing). I trimmed each time I reloaded them, until one day I resized a case and when I was seating a bullet, it actually fell through the neck into the powder charge. Quite a surprise. The necks had finally gotten too thin (actually well past too thin) and probably too brittle. I'm older and wiser now, but that did happen to me. Probably that isn't your problem, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to mention it.

[KBP75]

603country: The brass is once fired factory shells. never been reloaded before. Ran them thru dies and the neck has remained the same as before reloading. Dies all the way down as far as they can go. I sent them back to C&H reloading dies in Ohio. They said they will take a look at them. My new Lee die set is soon to arrive from Cabelas. We will see what the problem was! Thanks! ken

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by KBP

Hi Brian! Maybe I don't understand what you mean. If the bullet can be pulled out or pushed in the reloaded shell and the new die set puts a crimp to hold the bullet in place, why is the problem not solved? Size and reload the shell, and put a crimp on it to secure it from moving- problem solved? Why not? New dies, once fired shell and .308 bullet what is the hidden problem?

Because the case itself should hold the bullet in place, typically (only certain bench rest practices excepted) with far more force than you can move it with your fingers.

The inside measurement on a post-sized .308 case should be .306 or so. The bullet is .308. That 0.002 difference is a lot of force.

Using a crimp would hold the bullet in place but the real problem is improper sizing. The loose bullet is a symptom. Crimping covers the symptom but it doesn't solve the problem.

[KBP75]

Brian Pfleuger; Thanks for the help and advice. Hopefully, between the new Lee dies and the returned C&H dies, one set will be capable of properly sizing my .308 shells. I sent the old C&H dies back to the manufacturer as suggested and hope I will get a set that re-sizes the shells properly. In over 38 years of reloading, I never had this type of problem! Good thing I am a member of "The Firing Line" all the help is appreciated. As soon as I receive a new set of dies, I will be giving them a workout and will report back on what the C&H die makers had to say about the returned dies! Thanks! Ken

[F. Guffey]

Mike in Texas, ?? Forgive, I did not read your post, I have no clue as to what you recommended, I read the OP question, at first I thought he was trying to size with a seating die etc., etc.. Then I thought he could be someone that is only going to be happy with Lee dies.

I have C&H dies from the old days when they were in California, there is nothing suspect about the dies, I have acquired dies that have belonged to misguided reloaders, anything that can be accomplished by grinding I can accomplish with a feeler gage. Many years ago case trimmer pilots came in one size, back then reloaders were not hard headed, if the pilot did not fit the case mouth after sizing they sized after trimming, then there were a few, they are the ones that got into mortal combat with the case and trimmer when trying to remove the tight neck from the pilot.

F. Guffey

[Mike / Tx]

No issue Guffy,

I have been known to find a means to an end myself a time or two. I do however know which things to mess with and which ones NOT too.

I even made me a few trimmer pilots with which eve bolt I had laying around that was big enough to smooth down in the drill press. I fully admit I wished I had the funds for a nice lathe, but for most of what I do I have made that ol drill press sing a few decent tunes over the years. Oh and I DO have a couple of carbide tool pieces that I used to turn those trimmer pilots down with for the most part, but I still ended up finishing the last little bit by hand with Emory cloth.

[m&p45acp10+1]

I am wondering if the previous owner of those dies had the expander over sized for shooting cast bullets. I would have tried it without the expander after I deprimed the brass to see if I could get neck tension without it.

Note I had a similar problem with a set of dies for .357 Wildey Mag. There were two expander bottons with the set. One was for cast. The other for jacketed. At first when I tried with jacketed bullets the powder in the case was the only thing that kept the bullet from going to the bottom of the case . When I looked under the mat inside the die box there was the other expander . I swithced them out, and the problem went away.

[KBP75]

m&p45acp10+1; I checked what you suggested. I took a factory load, shot it and ran it thru the sizer WITHOUT the neck expander in it and the bullet still slid in and out of the case with little or no resistance. TATER! I also checked to see if the two dies had the center pieces reversed. No help! I will report back what C&H finds as soon as I am notified or get dies back from them. This has been interesting to say the least!

[Unclenick]

The fact the die without expander did not size the neck and the fact the expander was wider than on your .30-06 die, taken together, suggests to me that this die was for a different cartridge, like one of the several versions of the 8mm-308, which are only fifteen thousandths wider than .308", or maybe even a .338-308. CH4D makes dies for them all, so the wrong cartridge name may simply have been rolled into it. If you remember the diameter of the expander, that may tell the tale.

[F. Guffey]

A Quote:
“The up-side, you could have a body/shoulder/bump die, meaning you need a neck sizer die, some recommend the Lee Colet die, I don’t”

Unclenick, I have blind end micrometers, ball micrometers and a those old transfers, inside/outside etc.. When it comes down to the unknown case forming equipment is a good place to start. I think nothing of necking up a case to 35 cal. or 338 cal, to determine die and or chamber dimensions.

Determining the problem with the C&H die should be no more of a problem than a reloader necking down 308 W cases to 243 W cases, the terminology changes, one is called troubleshooting the other is called necking down/forming.

F. Guffey

[Unclenick]

Yes. If he has a mandrel die body or some other means of expanding the brass before he runs it into the die, that will quickly reveal the neck's diameter. I use the half ball split expanding type small hole gages for this kind of thing. But as with any tool, it only helps if you have it on hand. It occurred to me belatedly that he could have slugged the neck of the die, too. But I hope he'll tell us what CH4D says?

[Jeff2131]

Dont buy used dies. The tolerances are so small, youll never know if its indeed worn out or not until its too late. Buy an rcbs once and use it for life. Once its worn or breaks they will replace it free. Rcbs has been nothing short of amazing for me since ive been reloading. I also reload .308win i have a two die set and its a .308 win FL set. Save yourself the endless stress and aggrevaition and just spend the money for a good new product backed by a good supportive company.

[KBP75]

Cabelas came thru for me! Last week I ordered a new set of .308 dies and today they came in. I removed the primer decapper and ran the shells thru the sizing die. Problem solved! The new die set from Lee sized the shell including the case neck and the bullet now had to be run thru the next die to be seated! The bullet fits nice and tight like it should be. No need for crimping. For some reason, the C&H dies must have been; worn out, for cast bullets or for some other .308 chambering. Funny, it just said .308 on the dies! When I hear back from C&H I will post that their findings are! For now, I have loaded up the box of 20 with Nosler 150 gr Boat tail ballistic tips. I am shooting a new to me Tikka T3 Lite stainless steel rifle so I am starting at 41 gr. of IMR 3031 to see how it shoots. Finally, the fun begins!

[Scottish Highlander]

" 20 with Nosler 150 gr Boat tail ballistic tips. I am shooting a new to me Tikka T3 Lite stainless steel rifle so I am starting at 41 gr. of IMR 3031 to see how it shoots. Finally, the fun begins! "

I just did the same a few months back with my Tikka T3. In my book it states I got a really tight load of 1/2" @ 100 Yards from OAL of 70mm (2,755")...and 42 Grains of IMR 3031....Federal Primer...

Happy loading

Jamie

[KBP75]

Final report- findings from C&H factory tech.- 1) dies are over 50 years old 2) dies are not worn out and in perfect condition 3) expander button is OVERSIZED- will replace with proper size expander 4) tests and measurements show dies work proper and are within specs. 5) since my shells don't hold bullets after use of dies, my shells must be too thin at necks. My response- The shells I used are once fired Remingtons and Winchester Western shells. My new Lee dies resized the shells perfect and no issue holding bullets after reloading.(did NOT crimp) Since I used the C&H dies without the expander button, the over sized button was not the issue or the problem. I have reloaded for about 40 years and never ran into this problem with Lee dies, RCBS dies or Lyman dies. Conclusion- I will avoid C&H dies and NEVER BUY used dies again! Thanks for eveyones input. Anyone need a used set of .308 dies? HA HA!

[Jim Watson]

I had a similar experience.
I found that sizing thin walled .44-40 took little effort with little or no lube, but tended to scratch steel dies; even tumbling was not getting all the grit off.
So I paid a premium for a CH sizer completely coated in TiN. It is a beautiful gold color and sizes brass with even less effort and no lube. But it does not size them down enough for good bullet pull. CH CS told me to anneal the brass. For match rifle, sure; bulk pistol and carbine, no way. So I just polish the scratches out of my steel die every once in a while and move on.

[Unclenick]

What a bizarre response. Makes me wonder what the neck ID of that die actually is?

[ronz]

I just ran into the exact same problem
Bought some used equipment that came with a brand new looking set of RCBS 308 dies and some old lee 308 dies
I already had a set of lee dies but given a choice of course I used the rcbs
my bullets didn't fall trough but I could move the bullet after seating
sized over 100 but only made about 4 put them aside to pull later and took a different gun to the range
but now I know why there was 2 set's of 308 dies
I went down and ran 1 through the sizer without the deprimer and it sized the neck back down
and in a box of extra stuff there was a lyman ratchet for a lube sizer but no other casting stuff
at least now I know I have a set of dies for loading cast