Scope Problem ? Is the Arrow or is the Indian

[don777a]

I an "new" to rifle shooting and I am not sure if I have a rifle or scope problem or of course it could me just me that is not shooting well.

I have 243 Savage and 270 Remington 700. I can shoot small groups with the Savage. Say 1-2 inches at 100 yards. But with the Remington I get 5-6 inch groups with different kinds ammo. I took the scope and mounting hardware off and remounted tightening everything with torque wrench and lock tight. The scope on the 270 is a Nikon 3-9 x 40 buckmaster. Also, I have shot my friends remington 700 .308 with a cheap scope and hit bullseye at 300 yards. So I do not think it is me but you never know. Kind of frustrated since I like the rifle If can get it to shoot straight. I think I have eliminated ammo and loose mounts. Only things left is the rifle itself or the scope.

Any suggestions in getting this rifle to get respectable groups?

[Art Eatman]

I'd be suspicious of the forearm bedding. I'd clean out the barrel channel, free-floating it. Then, based on past experience, I'd put a shim out at the end of the forearm, with little pressure between stock and barrel. The shim, while not a necessity, can act to make the barrel harmonics more uniform.

(One of the causes of bad groups is the forearm pressing against the barrel. During a string of shots, the differential rate of heating of steel and stock changes the force against the barrel. Not good.)

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Could be the ammo, too - how many different types of ammo have you tried? It's likely not the scope - that's a decent one. What brand and type of rings are you using, and are your stock to action screws tight?

So most likely the ammo or the rifle (and if the rifle, it could be a bedding issue as Art says).

I'd try at least two more kinds of ammo, if you've only tried one kind, then report back. If you don't get a 2" group or better from at least ONE out of three factory ammos, then there's likely a non-ammo-related problem.

But when testing said additional ammo, make sure rings are tight (which you said you did but continue to do so), and action / stock screws are tight. But still, before you even do that, I'd like to know what brand and type of rings - please tell me it's not Millett "Angle-Locs"?

[upstate81]

My sentiments exactly on the millet rings. They are a royal pain the get set right. Not a fan at all.

[don777a]

I used federal power-shock, remington core lockt, and fusion. I was going to try some carefully metered hand loads next time but as was mentioned I think the issue somewhere else. I have a picatinny rail and same leupold rings on that. So I will look into bedding or new stock for the rifle. It is a a XCR II 700 so it is synthetic stock so I am not sure I can add the expoxy to it.

[4V50 Gary]

Inspect the muzzle.

[T. O'Heir]

If it's consistent 5-6 inch groups with different kinds ammo it indicates a rifle issue vs the sights or ammo. Groups are a bit big, but still ok for deer sized game though.
First make sure the stock screws are tight, not just the scope and mount screws.
Quickest test for the barrel touching the stock is to run a dollar bill under the barrel to the chamber area. Shouldn't stop until it gets to the chamber. Mind you, floating the barrel doesn't guarantee anything. Some rifles just don't like a floated barrel. Some demand it. Easily checked.
Art's shim is a quick test to see if that rifle prefers a pressure point vs a floated barrel. Works using a match book too. If the rifle prefers a non-floated barrel you can put a spot of bedding material about an inch or so aft of the end of the forestock to make it permanent. Do not forget the release agent.
"...not sure I can add the epoxy to it..." Yep. Bedding a synthetic isn't much different than a wood stock. Usually no need to remove a bit of material first. Mind you, if you have any doubts about doing it yourself, it may be an idea to have a smithy do it.
You do have some relatively inexpensive options if you just want another stock. ("I want one." is a reason.) The people at Boyd's are making some nice stuff for 700's. $129.00 will buy you a nice laminated stock. Still need to be fitted though. And you want a long action.
Look at the trigger pull too. Rem 700 XCR's have an adjustable trigger. There's a wee screw inside the trigger guard.
Manual's on Remington's site if you need one.

[Mobuck]

Sounds like operator error. Higher recoil rifle getting 2x-3x size groups???
Can you find another shooter to fire off a couple of 3 shot groups before doing any expensive parts swapping?

[AllenJ]

If you think it's the scope you could switch them to see. Just putting the 270 scope on the 243 would tell you.

Trying to determine the cause of big groups is a process as you can tell from the different advice given above. It could be any one of these, or a combination of more than just one. Start with the scope to give yourself piece of mind then I'd try skim bedding and free floating. Lots of videos on YouTube about skim bedding, it's as easy as they make it look.

Good luck and let us know what you find.

[jimbob86]

Groups are a bit big, but still ok for deer sized game though.

Only if you keep the range to 200 yards or less and have zero shooter error.


An adult deer's boiler room isn't much bigger than 1 cubic foot. A 6 inch group puts the bullet within 3 inches of POA @ 100 ..... so, if the shooter shoots up to his rifle, it's entirely possible to miss the boiler room past 200.

Zero shooter error isn't going to happen reliably from field positions under field conditions...... so add in some cushion for human error.....

..... so the effective range of this rifle, as is, on deer sized game? 150? Certainly seems a waste: a flat shooting cartridge that should be capable out to 1/4 mile...... limited to SKS ranges..... all that unused potential.....


I'm with Mo and Allen- eliminate other causes, and do the cheapest fixes first: swap shooters, swap scopes, before you go buying a new stock, bedding, etc......

[Unlicensed Dremel]

OK, so we've got a good / decent scope, and good / decent rings - but WHICH Leupold rings - the aluminum "Rrifleman" or steel PRW / QRW, or what? - Shouldn't matter but might.

You tried several ammos.

Sounds like you have the rings tight and the action screws tight.

So it's likely either the rifle or the shooter - first, as someone said, have a friend try a few groups with good sandbags. If they get the same result, then it's not you; it's the rifle - that is the most likely scenario - that's it's NOT you (but might be).

Then we're back to looking at the easier issues first - as Art mentioned, the bedding or as someone said the crown. Check crown - if no obvious knicks / defects (if there is nice uniformity), then see Art's advice - either "pressure bed" it at the front of the stock with wax paper, or do a full epoxy job (yes, you can do that with plastic stocks too). Since it's easier, try the pressure-bedding first, where you wedge wax paper or similar between the barrel and stock at the very front, to apply just a little constant upward pressure on the barrel, to keep it from coming in contact with the stock (hopefully). Now, repeat with 2-3 ammo types. Likely will not change anything, but might do the trick.

If that doesn't work, epoxy-bed the action & and chamber and test again, OR consider sending it back to Rem to fix. There are tutorials on youtube and elsewhere how to do a home epoxy-bedding job - it's not that hard - or get a 'smith to do it - they will charge you, what, probably $125, give or take, for this, plus the cost of the epoxy.

All else fails (if it's just a lemon), send it to Remington.

Oh, make sure that you are waiting for the barrel to cool off between shots - it doesn't have to be cold, but wait until it's not so hot that you can grab the barrel without pain. Shoot some rimfires / handguns while it's cooling between shots. How long you have to wait simply depends upon the ambient temperature. Could be 2 minutes or 20 minutes between each shot.

[tobnpr]

Simplest way to rule out an optic as the source of a problem is to swap it out...

Why didn't you (or don't you) swap out whatever it is you have on the Savage onto the 700??

[wizrd]

Nikon is a well respected name in optics -- but their scopes can be troublesome. A friend went through a total of 5 company returned scopes from Nikon about a year or so ago, before he got one that functioned well. I forget which model it was. Just saying. After his experience, I would never buy one.

[Saltydog235]

Nikon is a well respected name in optics -- but their scopes can be troublesome. A friend went through a total of 5 company returned scopes from Nikon about a year or so ago, before he got one that functioned well. I forget which model it was. Just saying. After his experience, I would never buy one.

I did that 3X in one season. Won't get into it since it ruffles the feathers of a member or two on here but I didn't try again after the last "new" one was sent to me. Had a pair of their binos as well, they fogged up and never did focus right. Not a fan of the brand and wouldn't put it on any of my rifles or gear kit.

I know a lot of people swear by them and have luck with them, not me though.

[skizzums]

as has been said a few times already, swap scopes with your other rifle, then swap mounts if possible. if you rule out those two things, then you can move on to the rifle itself, screws, bedding, crown, fouling etc. after you go through the entire elimination process and you are finding nothing that is fixing the issue, then you need to move on to operator error, more trigger time, weights/brands of ammo. please try to find someone you know is a really good shot to spend a couple of boxes behind the trigger, and let him/her rule out the possibilities of problems as well.

how is the rifle performing at shorter distances? still 3" even at 50 yards? I have only had a very few very cheap scopes not hold zero, even some very cheap ones still do that, I find that if the problem lies in scope it will likely be the mounting system and not the actual unit itself(surely it's possible though). either way a simple swap of first the scope and then the mounts will answer that easily.