Recommend a spotting scope?

FoghornLeghorn · November 2, 2016, 07:34 AM

I currently use a Bushnell Stalker 15 to 30 power stalking scope for target work. But I'm not able to accurately see 22 caliber holes at 200 yards. I'll really be in bad shape at 300 yards.

Would a decent quality 45x scope suffice for longer range target work? Or should I be looking at 60x?

g.willikers · November 2, 2016, 09:51 AM

Are you using a really steady tripod or bench mount for your scope?
That can be as important as the scope itself for a long distance clear view.
Just a thought.

FoghornLeghorn · November 2, 2016, 10:33 AM

Vivitar 2240. It's quite stable in all but the most stout winds.

firewrench044 · November 2, 2016, 03:18 PM

In High Power Rifle competition ( 200, 300 and 600 yards )
most competitors are using a KOWA spotting scope with
a 45 power eye piece, mine is a 82mm front lens with a
20-60 power variable eye piece

You can see a 223 hole at 200 but no body can see a 223 hole
at 300 yards

If you price a KOWA scope remember the eye piece is separate
and the scope is not cheap

The only thing I know of that will do a 223 hole at 300 is
a camera at the target, transmitting to your receiver,
some use wires, some are wireless
Again not cheap

Jimro · November 3, 2016, 06:07 AM

Less expensive than the Kowa are the Celestron and Konus spotting scopes which are still very good and usable. I don't know anyone who has a spotting scope that can see 22 cal holes at 300, either.

Jimro

**Unclenick** · November 3, 2016, 07:38 AM

Another Kowa owner, here. Spotting scopes are for seeing scoring discs inserted into bullet holes by the guys in the pits. Bullet holes themselves, beyond 200, are easily lost in mirage and the drop in contrast between the hole and the target black due to haze most days.

I've always been surprised that Canon makes optically stabilized binoculars, but not a spotting scope. Stabilization would help when the wind is blowing. At some point in time, I'm sure affordable adaptive optics will appear that put a dot from a precision collimated laser in one corner of the target and use it to remove the bends and wiggles of mirage. That may finally enable you to use enough magnification to pick up those little holes when the haze isn't bad.

FoghornLeghorn · November 3, 2016, 09:07 AM

Interesting observations. We have optics that can see into outer space but can't make out bullet holes at 300 yards?

Shoot and see targets, here I come.

**Unclenick** · November 6, 2016, 03:35 PM

Good luck finding a sanctioned match using those. We still need adaptive optics.

Jim Watson · November 6, 2016, 04:53 PM

Silicon replacing silica; electronics are coming in.

For established ranges, electronic targets reporting hits to the firing line. Sure, the gadgets cost, but not as much as constructing pits.

For solo practice, a camera near the target with a monitor at the firing line is already less expensive than a really nice spotting scope. There are half a dozen brands already, not to mention DIY plans.

rebs · November 6, 2016, 08:22 PM

I would like to know more about the camera and monitor setup. Price range ? Where to buy ?

Jim Watson · November 6, 2016, 08:26 PM

Here're two. There are more to search for.

https://targetvisioncam.com

https://www.bullseyecamera.com

Caution: I do not have one to review, I got away from LR before I could buy.

HiBC · November 6, 2016, 08:35 PM

I have an older 77 mm Kowa with the Flourite crystal lense.

Admitted,I'm at 5000 ft altitude. I'm not talking in a black bull,but with orange and white sight in targets,I can reliably see .223 bullet holes at 300 yds.
Every time I checksights on my 257,its zeroed at 300 yds.I have no problem doing it from the bench.I only go downrange to pickup the target.

I won't say I can typically do this,but one ideal day,I could see .30 cal holes in a black bullseye at a lasered 500 yds.

Mine has the 20-60 zoom. Depending on light,I don't gain anything above 40 or 45 X.

I suspect a fixed eyepiece might be a bit superior.I wear glasses,I think I'd like the LER lense about 32X.
I'd recommend Kowa.I think the Flourite lense helps.

FWIW, I bought an old NRA model Bauch and Lomb.Its maybe 60 mm? or 50mm. Fixed 20X.Made in the 30's.It resembles the Military version,but a little smaller.
Once again,not in a black bull,but with orange and white targets,it sees .22 bullet holes at 200 yds,no problem.
Neat feature,you turn the eyepiece to focus,but there is a "rapid" function where you pull /push the eyepiece through clicks for a coarse adj.

When I get target focus,one click pulling back gives a beautiful mirage focus.

Jim Watson · November 6, 2016, 08:47 PM

You are doing well.
A friend and I tried all manner of target colors and backers but could not reliably spot .45-70 at 500 meters needed for BPCR MS testing.
My 66mm Kowa and his 82.

buckhorn_cortez · November 6, 2016, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Interesting observations. We have optics that can see into outer space but can't make out bullet holes at 300 yards?

You can get optics that would theoretically do that. They're called telescopes.

Something like a Tele Vue-76 with a 5.5mm eyepiece would give you 200x magnification. At that magnification, the problem would be seeing through the atmospheric distortion from heat.

HiBC · November 7, 2016, 02:50 AM

Jim,this might sound crazy,but maybe it has to do with a little thinner air at 5000 feet.That and our humidity is low.
I'm thinking only part of what we are looking through is optics.The rest is seeing through the air.
I'm not doubting your experience.
I know I have been able to watch 4 of the moons of Jupiter with it.Thats not such a big deal. Galileo was able to do it around 1610.Supposedly his telescope at the time was about 20X.
Horsetooth Rock is a prominent feature about 6 to 7 km west of a patio on Taft Hill Road,Ft Collins,Co.You can look at it with computer maps.
From that distance I have watched climbers on that rock,and I could discern the blue and red colors of their ropes.
Now,its not like looking at a movie screen.Its in part about focusing the eye in on seeing fine detail.Maybe being near sighted helps.
Kowa makes some good stuff.

Jeff H · November 8, 2016, 08:06 AM

As mentioned previously, the stand can be just as important as the scope. Here is a lint to the type that I use.

http://www.champchoice.com/store/Mai...yBody&c=RASCSS

That stand combined with my Leupold 45X and I have no issues seeing bullet holes at 200. The only time I shoot 300 is at a competition where someone is working the pits, so there is always a marker in the hole, so I don't know if I could see the hole or not.

Iwanttoshootbettter · December 3, 2016, 10:15 AM

59.00$ Simmons 20x20x60 at Walmart does ok for me pretty good reviews 22 LR holes at 200 yards Im not sure.

HiBC · December 3, 2016, 11:17 AM

I'll agree stability is a really critical factor.You can't really focus your eye and study the image if the scope is moving.

I sometimes use a rabbit ear sandbag on the bench .

November 2, 2016, 07:34 AM	#1
FoghornLeghorn Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2011 Posts: 961	Recommend a spotting scope? I currently use a Bushnell Stalker 15 to 30 power stalking scope for target work. But I'm not able to accurately see 22 caliber holes at 200 yards. I'll really be in bad shape at 300 yards. Would a decent quality 45x scope suffice for longer range target work? Or should I be looking at 60x? Last edited by FoghornLeghorn; November 2, 2016 at 08:03 AM.

November 2, 2016, 09:51 AM	#2
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Are you using a really steady tripod or bench mount for your scope? That can be as important as the scope itself for a long distance clear view. Just a thought. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

November 3, 2016, 06:07 AM	#5
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Less expensive than the Kowa are the Celestron and Konus spotting scopes which are still very good and usable. I don't know anyone who has a spotting scope that can see 22 cal holes at 300, either. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

November 3, 2016, 07:38 AM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Another Kowa owner, here. Spotting scopes are for seeing scoring discs inserted into bullet holes by the guys in the pits. Bullet holes themselves, beyond 200, are easily lost in mirage and the drop in contrast between the hole and the target black due to haze most days. I've always been surprised that Canon makes optically stabilized binoculars, but not a spotting scope. Stabilization would help when the wind is blowing. At some point in time, I'm sure affordable adaptive optics will appear that put a dot from a precision collimated laser in one corner of the target and use it to remove the bends and wiggles of mirage. That may finally enable you to use enough magnification to pick up those little holes when the haze isn't bad. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 6, 2016, 03:35 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Good luck finding a sanctioned match using those. We still need adaptive optics. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 2, 2016, 10:33 AM	#3
FoghornLeghorn Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2011 Posts: 961	Vivitar 2240. It's quite stable in all but the most stout winds.

November 2, 2016, 03:18 PM	#4
firewrench044 Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2007 Location: Fort Pierce, Florida Posts: 381	In High Power Rifle competition ( 200, 300 and 600 yards ) most competitors are using a KOWA spotting scope with a 45 power eye piece, mine is a 82mm front lens with a 20-60 power variable eye piece You can see a 223 hole at 200 but no body can see a 223 hole at 300 yards If you price a KOWA scope remember the eye piece is separate and the scope is not cheap The only thing I know of that will do a 223 hole at 300 is a camera at the target, transmitting to your receiver, some use wires, some are wireless Again not cheap

November 3, 2016, 09:07 AM	#7
FoghornLeghorn Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2011 Posts: 961	Interesting observations. We have optics that can see into outer space but can't make out bullet holes at 300 yards? Shoot and see targets, here I come.

November 6, 2016, 04:53 PM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Silicon replacing silica; electronics are coming in. For established ranges, electronic targets reporting hits to the firing line. Sure, the gadgets cost, but not as much as constructing pits. For solo practice, a camera near the target with a monitor at the firing line is already less expensive than a really nice spotting scope. There are half a dozen brands already, not to mention DIY plans.

November 6, 2016, 08:22 PM	#10
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	I would like to know more about the camera and monitor setup. Price range ? Where to buy ?

November 6, 2016, 08:26 PM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Here're two. There are more to search for. https://targetvisioncam.com https://www.bullseyecamera.com Caution: I do not have one to review, I got away from LR before I could buy.

November 6, 2016, 08:35 PM	#12
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	I have an older 77 mm Kowa with the Flourite crystal lense. Admitted,I'm at 5000 ft altitude. I'm not talking in a black bull,but with orange and white sight in targets,I can reliably see .223 bullet holes at 300 yds. Every time I checksights on my 257,its zeroed at 300 yds.I have no problem doing it from the bench.I only go downrange to pickup the target. I won't say I can typically do this,but one ideal day,I could see .30 cal holes in a black bullseye at a lasered 500 yds. Mine has the 20-60 zoom. Depending on light,I don't gain anything above 40 or 45 X. I suspect a fixed eyepiece might be a bit superior.I wear glasses,I think I'd like the LER lense about 32X. I'd recommend Kowa.I think the Flourite lense helps. FWIW, I bought an old NRA model Bauch and Lomb.Its maybe 60 mm? or 50mm. Fixed 20X.Made in the 30's.It resembles the Military version,but a little smaller. Once again,not in a black bull,but with orange and white targets,it sees .22 bullet holes at 200 yds,no problem. Neat feature,you turn the eyepiece to focus,but there is a "rapid" function where you pull /push the eyepiece through clicks for a coarse adj. When I get target focus,one click pulling back gives a beautiful mirage focus.

November 6, 2016, 08:47 PM	#13
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	You are doing well. A friend and I tried all manner of target colors and backers but could not reliably spot .45-70 at 500 meters needed for BPCR MS testing. My 66mm Kowa and his 82.

November 7, 2016, 02:50 AM	#15
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Jim,this might sound crazy,but maybe it has to do with a little thinner air at 5000 feet.That and our humidity is low. I'm thinking only part of what we are looking through is optics.The rest is seeing through the air. I'm not doubting your experience. I know I have been able to watch 4 of the moons of Jupiter with it.Thats not such a big deal. Galileo was able to do it around 1610.Supposedly his telescope at the time was about 20X. Horsetooth Rock is a prominent feature about 6 to 7 km west of a patio on Taft Hill Road,Ft Collins,Co.You can look at it with computer maps. From that distance I have watched climbers on that rock,and I could discern the blue and red colors of their ropes. Now,its not like looking at a movie screen.Its in part about focusing the eye in on seeing fine detail.Maybe being near sighted helps. Kowa makes some good stuff. Last edited by HiBC; November 7, 2016 at 03:25 AM.

November 8, 2016, 08:06 AM	#16
Jeff H Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2009 Posts: 176	As mentioned previously, the stand can be just as important as the scope. Here is a lint to the type that I use. http://www.champchoice.com/store/Mai...yBody&c=RASCSS That stand combined with my Leupold 45X and I have no issues seeing bullet holes at 200. The only time I shoot 300 is at a competition where someone is working the pits, so there is always a marker in the hole, so I don't know if I could see the hole or not.

December 3, 2016, 10:15 AM	#17
Iwanttoshootbettter Member Join Date: November 16, 2016 Location: Laporte Texas Posts: 79	59.00$ Simmons 20x20x60 at Walmart does ok for me pretty good reviews 22 LR holes at 200 yards Im not sure.

December 3, 2016, 11:17 AM	#18
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	I'll agree stability is a really critical factor.You can't really focus your eye and study the image if the scope is moving. I sometimes use a rabbit ear sandbag on the bench .