what caliber do you use, and what do bad guys use

[JD0x0]

.... or it could disintegrate when it hits bone (sternum) and give the assailant a pair of "Hickeys From Hell" ....... that'd surely tick 'em off, if nothing else!

I'd avoid gimicky ammo..... an expanding bullet that holds together at around the speed of sound has, to me, shown to be the best compromise between energy delivered, penetration, and controllability .....

+1

A 78 grain .451 cal projectile has a sectional density of .055

Compare that to a typical lead 00 buckshot pellet
.33 cal 53.8grain SD= .71

In fact, that 73 grain bullet has a SD most comparable to #3 buck shot. On top of that, the light little bullet is meant to break apart. It's not going very deep and there'd be significant risk of the bullet not penetrating enough to kill. It's a squirrel load.

If you can put two in the sternum and one in the head, good for you. Use any common SD ammo and you'll be fine.

[jimbob86]

Liberty Civil Defense Ammunition 45 ACP +P 78 Grain Fragmenting Hollow Point Lead-Free traveling at a Muzzle Velocity: 1900 fps producing a Muzzle Energy: 625 ft. lbs

Looks like you are planning to Math your assailant to death .....

...... if criminals were influenced by math, they'd be a working joe with a 401K instead of a drug addled desperado with a stolen Hi-Point .....

[AF22Raptor]

Quote:
Liberty Civil Defense Ammunition 45 ACP +P 78 Grain Fragmenting Hollow Point Lead-Free traveling at a Muzzle Velocity: 1900 fps producing a Muzzle Energy: 625 ft. lbs take that with a double tap to the sternum and a single shot to the brain pan will STOP a bad guy.
.... or it could disintegrate when it hits bone (sternum) and give the assailant a pair of "Hickeys From Hell" ....... that'd surely tick 'em off, if nothing else!

I'd avoid gimicky ammo..... an expanding bullet that holds together at around the speed of sound has, to me, shown to be the best compromise between energy delivered, penetration, and controllability .....

The temporary Wound Cavity created by the torquing motion of the projectile and well as the break up of large sharp pieces of the projectile will cause massive trauma to the internal organs. I get ammo after carefully checking out the manufacture and make a few calls to old military buddies that get to try all kinds of ammo or gear when it first comes out and I get a couple of boxes of ammo to see how well it works on my sidearms. after about 100rds test run where I am looking at both accuracy and reliability then I add it to my EDC loadout. I always get similar carry rigs even if they are different platforms. By using the same type of holster and double magazine carrier I know that if I cam carrying my Sig1911 TacOps, Glock 22 40SW, Sig P226 40SW or my Glock 19 9mm I know that the draw is the same and the magazine will be in the same place so I have the overlapping muscle memory. I figure that one full magazine plus 2 additional mags will get me thru a firefight if I am ever in the wrong place at the wrong time. No sure what the majority of member's background is but I am a former US Navy Aviation Tech that also crossed trained in Security and Firearms Competition. I also made great life long friends in many different Military Communities that test and evaluate the latest and greatest gear and all sorts of firearm related items.

[jimbob86]

If it worked as well as you advertise it, it'd be adopted by ....well, everybody.

In six months, after this thing has taken the self defense ammo market by storm ..... or not...... you can tell us you told us so ......or not. Betting my 2 cents on not, m'self.

No sure what the majority of member's background is but I am a former US Navy Aviation Tech that also crossed trained in Security and Firearms Competition. I also made great life long friends in many different Military Communities that test and evaluate the latest and greatest gear and all sorts of firearm related items.

......

[sourdough1938]

45 ACP, .357 mag, .357 SIG, & .40.

[pete2]

I (good guy) carry .38 or a 9mm. Come on bad guys, chime in and tell us what you carry.

[Nakanokalronin]

I use 45acp, 9mm as my main carry/defense handgun and .380, .38spl or even 32acp for pocket carry when I absolutely can't carry a larger gun. I never use the "Nobody wants to get shot by it." excuse because I wouldn't want to get hit with a bb gun or sling shot, but that doesn't mean I think it's good for self defense.

[steveNChunter]

Come on bad guys, chime in and tell us what you carry.

Well any critter running around in my yard will tell you I'm a bad guy, and I carry a S&W shield in .40. So .40 must be the bad guy round.

[diggler1833]

G17 in my nightstand.

M&P9C or M&P40 for carry.

[Grunt96]

40s&w, but have a lot of preference for my 12 gauge at home.

[Snyper]

what caliber do you use, and what do bad guys use
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

I suspect that data isn't quite right since it's nearly 20 years old

There are far more semi's being used now, and more 9mm and 40 cals.

They will use whatever they can steal though, so there's a huge assortment

[Snyper]

The temporary Wound Cavity created by the torquing motion of the projectile and well as the break up of large sharp pieces of the projectile will cause massive trauma to the internal organs.

I recently read an article that said bullets usually only make one revolution while inside the target

Handguns have a relatively slow rate of twist, so I wouldn't expect the torque to contribute much to the damage

I think it comes from the rapid compression of the tissues

[gbclarkson]

kel tec.32 in the summer
bersa bp9cc during jacket and coat weather
taurus .44spl in the car when I cannot do the above
colt python by the bed

[Doc Holliday 1950]

Always a 357 with one or 2 speed loaders.

[Double Naught Spy]

Fingerprints from a shell casing is an invention of TV. The heat from the powder detonation destroys the oil from the finger and any finger print.

I got the information from my daughter who actually runs a crime scene unit and not from an internet post or a class. Believe what you want, there is no point to a debate.

I know you mean to add credibility on the internet by citing your daughter, but you fall into the same category that you just denounced. skizzums is right. It can and has been done.

http://www.thetruthaboutforensicscie...-to-corrosion/

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1114083924.htm

http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...ience.fingerpr

http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...r-fingerprints

Your daughter may not have the technology available to do this, but it certainly can be done and is not just an invention from TV.

[Nanuk]

I carried a 357 mag for 20 years and a 40 or 357sig for the last 15 or so years. I don't carry mouse guns and I carry everywhere, everyday. I have been carrying my new S&W model 69 44 magnum loaded with 210 grain STHP's and a 40 Shield as a bug lately loaded with 155's.

My choices are simple, my duty gun was a 357 so thats what I carried 24/7. Having seen lots of people shot with many things I have faith in the 357. I carried a 40 as a duty gun and carried the same gun off duty until I retired.

I have been toting Glocks for the last 3 years and have been slowly slipping back into magnum revolvers for EDC.

[Snyper]

Quote:
No sure what the majority of member's background is but I am a former US Navy Aviation Tech that also crossed trained in Security and Firearms Competition. I also made great life long friends in many different Military Communities that test and evaluate the latest and greatest gear and all sorts of firearm related items.

That's cool and all, but it doesn't change the laws of physics

Lightweight high speed ammo isn't the best choice for personal defense, or really anything other than small varmints

If it were, the market would be flooded with similar loads, since all this stuff has been repeatedly tested for many years

[NWCP]

I carry a .45ACP, or a 9mm depending on how I'm dressed. At times I'll carry a snub nosed .38 spcl. As for the bad guys... I haven't a clue. My guess is primarily whatever they can steal, or buy on the street.

[Double Naught Spy]

Here is a more recent article of criminal caliber choices (2009 publication)...
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...r_N.htm?csp=15

[Nanuk]

Criminals used to use "Saturday night specials" but since they have been banned only better quality guns are available. More and more are using Glocks, oh and Hi points....

[Cosmodragoon]

Snyper wrote:

That's cool and all, but it doesn't change the laws of physics

Lightweight high speed ammo isn't the best choice for personal defense, or really anything other than small varmints

It depends on what you mean by "high" and "light". For instance, .223 is widely respected. Unfortunately, it is a rifle round. As far as light and fast handgun ammo, two chamberings immediately come to mind. The 5.7 is trusted by some security agencies, though some of that may be special bullet design and the "good" ones are not available to ordinary citizens. The .327 is very impressive, though poor marketing and bad timing kept it a minor player in the market and I don't think adequate SD testing has been done.

[tallball]

Hot weather: 380
Moderate weather: 38 special
Cold weather:.44 special

Most common calibers used in crimes: 9mm, 22, 40, 380. In that order, according to a report from the California Attorney General in 2009. Perhaps your state is different, but that list passes the "common sense test" imho.

[Sight Unseen]

This thread reminds me of a show called "Drugs Inc." it's on the National Geographic channel and chronicles drug use in major cites across the U.S. They interview Cops, Drug dealers and users.

Anyways in one episode they were interviewing your typical gangsta thug type crack dealer and he pulls out a Hi Point which he refers to as his "40 cal Glock". What I got from that was most low-level criminals believe any polymer handgun to be a Glock.

They also had another dealer who referred to his Walther P99 as an "PP9" close, but no cigar. I'm assuming he he thought he had a 9x19mm PPK or something along those lines.

[Snyper]

It depends on what you mean by "high" and "light".

I mean the load being discussed:

Quote:
Liberty Civil Defense Ammunition 45 ACP +P 78 Grain Fragmenting Hollow Point Lead-Free traveling at a Muzzle Velocity: 1900 fps producing a Muzzle Energy: 625 ft. lbs take that with a double tap to the sternum and a single shot to the brain pan will STOP a bad guy.

[Snyper]

Anyways in one episode they were interviewing your typical gangsta thug type crack dealer and he pulls out a Hi Point which he refers to as his "40 cal Glock". What I got from that was most low-level criminals believe any polymer handgun to be a Glock.

I had a guy come in the shop one day and ask for a magazine "for his Glock 40"

I asked what model, and he didn't know.

I got suspicious and tried to get him to bring it in so I could look at it but he was hesitant, and wanted to "look at some until I see the right one"

I showed him a few guns, and he picked an HK USP 40 and said, "that's the one"

I sold him a fairly expensive magazine, and when he left, I got his license number and called the PD across the street, who managed to stop him before he got out of town, and they discovered the STOLEN HK, which just happened to be one I had sold to one of our regular customers, and had been taken from his car in another town about 15 miles away

When they returned his gun, they also gave him the magazine the thief purchased, so it was a "win -win"