Upgrading .45 Systema to +p

novus collectus · May 12, 2005, 05:28 PM

I have a systema (1911 A1 license) and I have heard of some quality gunsmiths using the systema frame for a total rebuild gun. I was wondering how realistic it would be to change the slide and barrel to accept .45 +p, .45 super, 10mm, or 400 corbon (if it is even possible that is). I heard that the gun I have uses weaker metals and the slide stop would wear out the notch in the origional slide. Would changing the slide and barrel be enough, or is there something else that has to be done (if even possible)?

Handy · May 12, 2005, 06:00 PM

This gun is semi-collectable, and a nice example of old style Colt type production. There are plenty of cheap 1911s made to more modern standards if you want to screw around. I'd highly recommend you sell the gun to someone who appreciates it and use the procedes to buy a $400 SA as a project gun (or whatever brand floats you're boat).

The Sistema just seems like the wrong gun to fool with for a range of reasons.

novus collectus · May 12, 2005, 06:18 PM

I live in Maryland. Need I say more? It is a pain in the butt to buy a handgun here, especially for someone fighting with NICS. Now if there is a another C&R 1911 I could buy that would fit in my budget, then I would alter that instead since I have no problem with my state when it comes to C&R.

I would plan on saving the parts and I have decided to not permanently alter it unless neccessary. What other concerns are there? If they are unsurpassable or may damage my collectable, then I will stop thinking about it right here. And btw, thanks for the advice so far and I appreciate it.

Dave Sample · May 12, 2005, 08:08 PM

They are a very poor choice for a platform for many reasons.

DT Guy · May 13, 2005, 08:19 AM

I think the metallurgy of ANY gun of that age relegates it to the 'SAAMI Spec' club. They've come a long way in just the heat-treat process for slides, and I personally wouldn't expect the Systema to last very long as a 45 Super.

MHO, of course.

Larry

Clemson · May 13, 2005, 08:36 AM

I'm not sure what you consider to be "that age," but Systemas were made up into the late 1960's. Most were produced post-WWII. 1927 was an adoption date, not a production date. I have two that I bought a few years ago when they were selling for $299 each. I put a Storm Lake barrel into one of them, and it has been a very accurate .45. As Dave indicated, they may not be the best choice for a more powerful cartridge, but for .45 ACP, they are really hard to beat. Machine work is way, way better than that of my Norinco.

Clemson

MLC · May 13, 2005, 08:38 AM

Quote:

They are a very poor choice for a platform for many reasons.

I have a Sistema as well.
I don't intend to hot rod it but am concerned by your post as I do handload for it.
Are there flaws in the Sistemas?
Can you elaborate on your post?

*edited for spelling

*

CastleBravo · May 13, 2005, 08:45 AM

The cost to bring a Sistema up to snuff for hot-rod cartridges would be about the same as buying a Springfield Armory GI model that you wouldn't have to worry about.

You could put an 18.5lb spring and a CP Tuff Buff in it to shoot .45 ACP +P, and the gun probably wouldn't fly apart or anything.

Most gunsmiths are leery of doing custom work on anything cheaper than a Springfield Armory GI model, for what it's worth.

Dave Sample · May 13, 2005, 11:03 AM

These guns are great just like they come to you. They are reliable, for the most part, and will shoot GI Hardball forever. That is what they were made to do. All I ever recommend for these kinds of 1911's is a reliablity tune up by a competent pistiolsmith. I tuned one up after having it parkerized for a Cowboy Action Shooter to use in "Pike Stages" where you can shoot a stage with a 1911 WWI type gun. "The Wild Bunch Lives!"

I am not in this business for the money and never have been. I was in it because I wanted to be the best, not the busiest. I had to make time after I worked a full time job to build guns and wanted my efforts to pay off when I was done with a 1911. I did my own 1927 in a weekend and it was soft. It was very easy to checker and get smoothed out. It was cheap. It had 11.25 mm on the side of the slide and I thought it would give a DA fits in court because it had numbers all over it. I called it "Evita" and planned on losing it if I ever had to use it on duty because the Aurora Cops would have slapped me in jail and send the gun to the crusher if I were 1000% right. This is called the "Intended Puropse For The Gun". They hung their own out to dry and so I knew I didn't have a chance. That is why I never wore my vest on that job. I could not afford to win a gunfight.

The only platform I like would be a New '70 series Colt 1911. That would not be a waste of time, effort, and money. Factory gun tweaking is how most smiths make their money and they cannot afford to build the kind of guns I build and that I teach my students to build. We spend 100-150 hours on the Online 1911 Patriot Class guns and they are very nice indeed. Better than they can buy in a factory type gun. We build a gun and have some fun!.

novus collectus · May 13, 2005, 11:51 AM

Quote:

I called it "Evita"

LOL

......I'm going to steal that idea. I think my Systema has a new name.

Do you think I should leave the front sight alone (for historic reasons) or is it possible that I can instal a dovetail (or whatever that thingy it is called)?

Clemson · May 13, 2005, 12:51 PM

If you will navigate around the following site, you can see what a hobbiest did with a pair of Systema Colts.

http://www.homegunsmith.com/

The sights are the weak point on the Systema. They are truly miniscule. The barrel on one of mine was a waste -- almost no rifling left. I rebarreled that one, added a beavertail safety, a Nowlin trigger, and a new set of grips. The gun shoots as well as any Gold Cup that I ever shot.

Clemson

20cows · May 13, 2005, 12:58 PM

Quote:

It had 11.25 mm on the side of the slide and I thought it would give a DA fits in court because it had numbers all over it. I called it "Evita" and planned on losing it if I ever had to use it on duty because the Aurora Cops would have slapped me in jail and send the gun to the crusher if I were 1000% right. This is called the "Intended Puropse For The Gun".

????????

11.25mm is just the metric designation of 45 acp. What is different about the "intended purpose for the gun" for one of these that is different from that of any other, ie. a Colt 1911?

As I understand it the Sistema Colts were 1911A1's made on Colt machinery out of Colt parts in Argentina. In my book that makes them come out a whole lot like a same period Colt. (Keep in mind I'm NOT talking about the vastly inferior Ballister Molina guns). I think you could do anything with one of these that you could do with a Colt of the same age. If you could do the 45 +P with the Colt (I assume you could) why not with the Sistema?

I purchased mine from a part-time FFL right after importation began and folks didn't know what they were yet. I got it for $175. I put a 24 lbs recoil spring on it, replaced the hand-biting hammer and shoot Rem Golden Saber 230 gr hollow points out of it w/o any problems. If I were to chose a 1911 for customization, for the money that I already have in it, it would be the one I'd start with.

If I remember right, mine was manufactured in 1935 by the serial number.

CastleBravo · May 13, 2005, 01:04 PM

Quote:

11.25mm is just the metric designation of 45 acp. What is different about the "intended purpose for the gun" for one of these that is different from that of any other, ie. a Colt 1911?

Um, somebody doesn't quite "get" the story.

Dave Sample · May 14, 2005, 12:16 PM

Duh? I guess I was too devious when I mentioned that the gun was built to be sacrificed to the DA and the crusher in case I had to use it.
If you want to destroy your gun with a 24 lb recoil spring, that is OK with me. You are the answer to a a pistolsmith's daily prayer. In an old gun made with old time steel, that makes a lot of sense.

Harry Bonar · May 19, 2005, 06:42 PM

Dear Smiths:
Ballester Molinas aren't all that bad. Terrible triggers!
Harry B.

Lion In Winter · May 20, 2005, 03:36 PM

"planned on losing it if I ever had to use it on duty because the Aurora Cops would have slapped me in jail and send the gun to the crusher if I were 1000% right. This is called the "Intended Puropse For The Gun". They hung their own out to dry and so I knew I didn't have a chance. That is why I never wore my vest on that job. I could not afford to win a gunfight."

Surely you jest?

Handy · May 20, 2005, 04:34 PM

Harry, why do you bring up the Molinas?

Harry Bonar · May 30, 2005, 07:16 PM

Dear Handy:
I just knew better; I apologize!

Old farts just cannot keep their mouths shut!
Harry B.

Dave Sample · June 1, 2005, 04:30 PM

No. I wasn't "Jesting". The Aurora PD is one of the worst PD's in America and always has been. The Courts are worse and they give new meaning to "Kangaroo Court". The Last Chief recently stepped on his you know what and the new chief seems somewhat better. I was a private cop armed with a 45 auto, a shotgun, a PD Radio, and a NYPD Uniform with no patches. I was on my own out there with 0 backup. I backed up the PD. I could not afford to live through a gunfight in that city.

knova · June 4, 2005, 11:39 AM

The only Systema i've seen lately are the ones sold by S.O.G. at $399 ea in fair cond.So much for that issue. I got mine as special select but found it had a barrel ser.# mismatch. So, Ireplaced evitas' barrel with a Colt. I also replaced the plastic with rosewood grips!Picky/picky eh? Used to have a Singer contract 1911 45 . Stayed in the back of my mind until the 27s' arrival!
Made under Colts' supervision in Argentina,until their Hartford plant was geared up to frull production. As far as the hardened slide and Colt specs the systema is the equivalent. I wouild not feel pregnant entering it in any .45 1911-A1 pistol competition.

Dave Sample · June 5, 2005, 11:51 AM

When you work with metals, a checkering file will tell you how hard that lower end is. They may very well be like Colt's which used to be soft, also. I am used to working with much better components that this stuff so I may be a little hard on the fact that if you customize a $300.00 gun, that is what you have when you are done. These old slides can be very hard and I used them on custom comp guns in the old days with confidence. I used to buy them in lots of six for $35.00 apiece.
When you add custom features to a 1911, you seldom get that money back, except in pride of ownership for the time you have it and use it. No matter what you do to it and how much you spend, you still have an old Brazilian 1911.

May 12, 2005, 05:28 PM	#1
novus collectus Junior member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 940	Upgrading .45 Systema to +p I have a systema (1911 A1 license) and I have heard of some quality gunsmiths using the systema frame for a total rebuild gun. I was wondering how realistic it would be to change the slide and barrel to accept .45 +p, .45 super, 10mm, or 400 corbon (if it is even possible that is). I heard that the gun I have uses weaker metals and the slide stop would wear out the notch in the origional slide. Would changing the slide and barrel be enough, or is there something else that has to be done (if even possible)?

May 13, 2005, 08:19 AM	#5
DT Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 959	I think the metallurgy of ANY gun of that age relegates it to the 'SAAMI Spec' club. They've come a long way in just the heat-treat process for slides, and I personally wouldn't expect the Systema to last very long as a 45 Super. MHO, of course. Larry __________________ He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos

May 13, 2005, 08:36 AM	#6
Clemson Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2001 Location: Greenwood, SC Posts: 875	I'm not sure what you consider to be "that age," but Systemas were made up into the late 1960's. Most were produced post-WWII. 1927 was an adoption date, not a production date. I have two that I bought a few years ago when they were selling for $299 each. I put a Storm Lake barrel into one of them, and it has been a very accurate .45. As Dave indicated, they may not be the best choice for a more powerful cartridge, but for .45 ACP, they are really hard to beat. Machine work is way, way better than that of my Norinco. Clemson __________________ NRA Endowment Member, NRA Certified Instructor CWP Holder US Army veteran Gunsmith www.boltandbarrel.com

May 13, 2005, 12:51 PM	#11
Clemson Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2001 Location: Greenwood, SC Posts: 875	If you will navigate around the following site, you can see what a hobbiest did with a pair of Systema Colts. http://www.homegunsmith.com/ The sights are the weak point on the Systema. They are truly miniscule. The barrel on one of mine was a waste -- almost no rifling left. I rebarreled that one, added a beavertail safety, a Nowlin trigger, and a new set of grips. The gun shoots as well as any Gold Cup that I ever shot. Clemson __________________ NRA Endowment Member, NRA Certified Instructor CWP Holder US Army veteran Gunsmith www.boltandbarrel.com

May 19, 2005, 06:42 PM	#15
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	guns Dear Smiths: Ballester Molinas aren't all that bad. Terrible triggers! Harry B.

May 12, 2005, 06:00 PM	#2
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	This gun is semi-collectable, and a nice example of old style Colt type production. There are plenty of cheap 1911s made to more modern standards if you want to screw around. I'd highly recommend you sell the gun to someone who appreciates it and use the procedes to buy a $400 SA as a project gun (or whatever brand floats you're boat). The Sistema just seems like the wrong gun to fool with for a range of reasons.

May 12, 2005, 06:18 PM	#3
novus collectus Junior member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 940	I live in Maryland. Need I say more? It is a pain in the butt to buy a handgun here, especially for someone fighting with NICS. Now if there is a another C&R 1911 I could buy that would fit in my budget, then I would alter that instead since I have no problem with my state when it comes to C&R. I would plan on saving the parts and I have decided to not permanently alter it unless neccessary. What other concerns are there? If they are unsurpassable or may damage my collectable, then I will stop thinking about it right here. And btw, thanks for the advice so far and I appreciate it.

May 12, 2005, 08:08 PM	#4
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	They are a very poor choice for a platform for many reasons.

May 13, 2005, 08:45 AM	#8
CastleBravo Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Posts: 2,144	The cost to bring a Sistema up to snuff for hot-rod cartridges would be about the same as buying a Springfield Armory GI model that you wouldn't have to worry about. You could put an 18.5lb spring and a CP Tuff Buff in it to shoot .45 ACP +P, and the gun probably wouldn't fly apart or anything. Most gunsmiths are leery of doing custom work on anything cheaper than a Springfield Armory GI model, for what it's worth.

May 13, 2005, 11:03 AM	#9
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	These guns are great just like they come to you. They are reliable, for the most part, and will shoot GI Hardball forever. That is what they were made to do. All I ever recommend for these kinds of 1911's is a reliablity tune up by a competent pistiolsmith. I tuned one up after having it parkerized for a Cowboy Action Shooter to use in "Pike Stages" where you can shoot a stage with a 1911 WWI type gun. "The Wild Bunch Lives!" I am not in this business for the money and never have been. I was in it because I wanted to be the best, not the busiest. I had to make time after I worked a full time job to build guns and wanted my efforts to pay off when I was done with a 1911. I did my own 1927 in a weekend and it was soft. It was very easy to checker and get smoothed out. It was cheap. It had 11.25 mm on the side of the slide and I thought it would give a DA fits in court because it had numbers all over it. I called it "Evita" and planned on losing it if I ever had to use it on duty because the Aurora Cops would have slapped me in jail and send the gun to the crusher if I were 1000% right. This is called the "Intended Puropse For The Gun". They hung their own out to dry and so I knew I didn't have a chance. That is why I never wore my vest on that job. I could not afford to win a gunfight. The only platform I like would be a New '70 series Colt 1911. That would not be a waste of time, effort, and money. Factory gun tweaking is how most smiths make their money and they cannot afford to build the kind of guns I build and that I teach my students to build. We spend 100-150 hours on the Online 1911 Patriot Class guns and they are very nice indeed. Better than they can buy in a factory type gun. We build a gun and have some fun!.

May 14, 2005, 12:16 PM	#14
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	Duh? I guess I was too devious when I mentioned that the gun was built to be sacrificed to the DA and the crusher in case I had to use it. If you want to destroy your gun with a 24 lb recoil spring, that is OK with me. You are the answer to a a pistolsmith's daily prayer. In an old gun made with old time steel, that makes a lot of sense.

May 20, 2005, 03:36 PM	#16
Lion In Winter Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Posts: 67	"planned on losing it if I ever had to use it on duty because the Aurora Cops would have slapped me in jail and send the gun to the crusher if I were 1000% right. This is called the "Intended Puropse For The Gun". They hung their own out to dry and so I knew I didn't have a chance. That is why I never wore my vest on that job. I could not afford to win a gunfight." Surely you jest?

May 20, 2005, 04:34 PM	#17
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Harry, why do you bring up the Molinas?

May 30, 2005, 07:16 PM	#18
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	molinas: Dear Handy: I just knew better; I apologize! Old farts just cannot keep their mouths shut! Harry B.

June 1, 2005, 04:30 PM	#19
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	No. I wasn't "Jesting". The Aurora PD is one of the worst PD's in America and always has been. The Courts are worse and they give new meaning to "Kangaroo Court". The Last Chief recently stepped on his you know what and the new chief seems somewhat better. I was a private cop armed with a 45 auto, a shotgun, a PD Radio, and a NYPD Uniform with no patches. I was on my own out there with 0 backup. I backed up the PD. I could not afford to live through a gunfight in that city.

June 4, 2005, 11:39 AM	#20
knova Junior Member Join Date: June 13, 2002 Location: South bend, Indiana Posts: 13	Systema 27 .45acp The only Systema i've seen lately are the ones sold by S.O.G. at $399 ea in fair cond.So much for that issue. I got mine as special select but found it had a barrel ser.# mismatch. So, Ireplaced evitas' barrel with a Colt. I also replaced the plastic with rosewood grips!Picky/picky eh? Used to have a Singer contract 1911 45 . Stayed in the back of my mind until the 27s' arrival! Made under Colts' supervision in Argentina,until their Hartford plant was geared up to frull production. As far as the hardened slide and Colt specs the systema is the equivalent. I wouild not feel pregnant entering it in any .45 1911-A1 pistol competition.

June 5, 2005, 11:51 AM	#21
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	When you work with metals, a checkering file will tell you how hard that lower end is. They may very well be like Colt's which used to be soft, also. I am used to working with much better components that this stuff so I may be a little hard on the fact that if you customize a $300.00 gun, that is what you have when you are done. These old slides can be very hard and I used them on custom comp guns in the old days with confidence. I used to buy them in lots of six for $35.00 apiece. When you add custom features to a 1911, you seldom get that money back, except in pride of ownership for the time you have it and use it. No matter what you do to it and how much you spend, you still have an old Brazilian 1911.