Spotting firearms - Page 2

TexasJustice7 · August 6, 2012, 12:10 PM

There is nothing in the statutes of Texas regarding printing. A law enforcement officer told me you can see the imprint of a woman's breast but that does not mean unconcealed. When I first started carrying I felt my carrying a CA Bulldog presented to big a bulge, while pocket carrying my 38 I felt was better concealed. I carry my bullodog in a galco paddle holster, and I have not found anything else that works better for me. Most people don't notice that well whatever accessories someone else is carrying, even if they have a fanny pack. As long as one isn't wearing see thru clothing it does not seem to be a problem in Texas.

I would never say anything to someone I spot carrying as it is none of my business.

BlueTrain · August 6, 2012, 01:22 PM

If I could inquire of the original poster, did you see a gun?

Stressfire · August 6, 2012, 02:07 PM

Fortunately for me, I get help from the wifey before we leave the house together and we play "Where is my gun?"

If she can spot it, I change the offending article or move location

Her suggestions have helped me work out a dress code for when she is not available to help.

**JohnKSa** · August 6, 2012, 11:01 PM

Quote:

There is nothing in the statutes of Texas regarding printing.

That is true, as far as it goes. The law basically says that the person can't intentionally fail to conceal the gun.

I wouldn't take that to mean that printing is a total non-issue, however. Unlike the laws about public indecency, there is no careful definition of what constitutes "failing to conceal".

If, in spite of a token effort to cover the gun, it is still clearly detectable to the ordinary observer and the CHL holder obviously must understand this to be true then there's a good argument to be made that the CHL holder is intentionally failing to conceal the gun and is therefore in violation of the law.

My take is that the law makes it clear that a CHL holder must make a reasonable attempt to conceal the firearm. I think we all print unintentionally from time to time and that's clearly not illegal. On the other hand, TX CHL holders who know and don't care that their gun is always obviously printing are, in my opinion, intentionally failing to conceal and therefore are not acting in accord with the letter or spirit of the law.

TexasJustice7 · August 7, 2012, 07:11 AM

Quote:

JohnSka: My take is that the law makes it clear that a CHL holder must make a reasonable attempt to conceal the firearm. I think we all print unintentionally from time to time and that's clearly not illegal. On the other hand, TX CHL holders who know and don't care that their gun is always obviously printing are, in my opinion, intentionally failing to conceal and therefore are not acting in accord with the letter or spirit of the law.

Someone intentionallly carring unconcealed with no attempt at concealment is likely to be arrested since we do not have open carry in Texas. Someone's shirt blowing up, etc, might result in an old lady calling the police but is not intentional unconcealment. Many people wear light clothing in Texas due to the tripple digit heat. I have traveled all over Texas without any problem wearing a galco paddle holster, and carrying a Charter Arms 44 Spl which is the same size approximately of a J frame. I am careful not to pick up anything including change that happens to fall on the floor, and I wear a thick heavy harbor bay shirt with one pocket to hold speedloaders.

If however someone is arrested for intentional unconcealment by someone in law enforcement that happens to be anti-gun one may run attorney fees but convicting them would be difficult. My experience is that law abiding citisens who are not breaking the law don't have much to worry about unless they are flagrantly unconcealing their weapon. Where I live I know most of the law enforcement officers however.

One thing I wonder about however, is say, Texas is NOT an open carry state, but if a state next to us has Open Carry, would a person with a Texas Permit be permitted to open carry in a state that is reciprical with Texas.
I would never carry openly anyway, but just wondering how that works.
While I never say anything to anyone I see carrying, I try to spot people that are but consider it none of my business.

**JohnKSa** · August 7, 2012, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Someone's shirt blowing up, etc, might result in an old lady calling the police but is not intentional unconcealment.

Absolutely correct.

Quote:

If however someone is arrested for intentional unconcealment by someone in law enforcement that happens to be anti-gun one may run attorney fees but convicting them would be difficult.

It might be difficult, depending on the circumstances. If there's clearly no intent to conceal then it would be easy to convict.

This is just my opinion, but here's how I think it would work if there's a token attempt to conceal that's obviously ineffective. The first offense would probably be a non-issue. Second offense might go either way. Third time would be hard to defend. Basically it would take a pattern of behavior to establish that that the person was intentionally failing to conceal, but once the pattern was established, I think it would be fairly easy to get a conviction.

jfrey · August 7, 2012, 10:46 PM

TexasJustice, you pose a good question. Conversely, we had friends from New Mexico come for a visit. They have open carry in NM. I told them before they crossed the border that we didn't have open carry in Texas and they could carry on a NM permit but they better keep it covered at all times. One fellow was under some misunderstanding that NM law applied anywhere he was in any state. I enlightened him that those boys from the DPS don't play and he better go study the law some more on guns and speed limits.

ltc444 · August 7, 2012, 10:47 PM

body language is the major tell. Many of the obvious signs have been discussed. But attitude is a major indicator.

I have seen many "professionals" open carry and no one noticed. I have seen punks without the obvious tells get spotted because of their physical carriage.

It is hard to describe what I'm saying. Maybe someone else who is a better wordsmith could do a better job.

**JohnKSa** · August 7, 2012, 11:04 PM

Quote:

One fellow was under some misunderstanding that NM law applied anywhere he was in any state.

A misunderstanding indeed. When a person carries in a reciprocal state, they are subject to that state's laws, not their own state's laws.

Glenn E. Meyer · August 8, 2012, 10:10 AM

Ayoob has reported several cases like that. Folks think their state applies in another and they go to jail.

One case was a student at the police academy who insisted on carrying in another state as he was an 'officer'. Ayoob told him NO,NO!

Student insisted and went to jail in the other state.

August 6, 2012, 01:22 PM	#27
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	If I could inquire of the original poster, did you see a gun? __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 6, 2012, 02:07 PM	#28
Stressfire Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,497	Fortunately for me, I get help from the wifey before we leave the house together and we play "Where is my gun?" If she can spot it, I change the offending article or move location Her suggestions have helped me work out a dress code for when she is not available to help. __________________ "The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" - Montgomery Scott Last edited by Stressfire; August 6, 2012 at 02:13 PM.

August 8, 2012, 10:10 AM	#35
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Ayoob has reported several cases like that. Folks think their state applies in another and they go to jail. One case was a student at the police academy who insisted on carrying in another state as he was an 'officer'. Ayoob told him NO,NO! Student insisted and went to jail in the other state. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

August 6, 2012, 12:10 PM	#26
TexasJustice7 Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2011 Posts: 213	There is nothing in the statutes of Texas regarding printing. A law enforcement officer told me you can see the imprint of a woman's breast but that does not mean unconcealed. When I first started carrying I felt my carrying a CA Bulldog presented to big a bulge, while pocket carrying my 38 I felt was better concealed. I carry my bullodog in a galco paddle holster, and I have not found anything else that works better for me. Most people don't notice that well whatever accessories someone else is carrying, even if they have a fanny pack. As long as one isn't wearing see thru clothing it does not seem to be a problem in Texas. I would never say anything to someone I spot carrying as it is none of my business.

August 7, 2012, 10:46 PM	#32
jfrey Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Location: Coastal South Texas Posts: 557	TexasJustice, you pose a good question. Conversely, we had friends from New Mexico come for a visit. They have open carry in NM. I told them before they crossed the border that we didn't have open carry in Texas and they could carry on a NM permit but they better keep it covered at all times. One fellow was under some misunderstanding that NM law applied anywhere he was in any state. I enlightened him that those boys from the DPS don't play and he better go study the law some more on guns and speed limits.

August 7, 2012, 10:47 PM	#33
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	body language is the major tell. Many of the obvious signs have been discussed. But attitude is a major indicator. I have seen many "professionals" open carry and no one noticed. I have seen punks without the obvious tells get spotted because of their physical carriage. It is hard to describe what I'm saying. Maybe someone else who is a better wordsmith could do a better job.