When's a Shotgun Not a Shotgun

HughScot · July 29, 2016, 09:41 AM

I read the most amazing thing yesterday, the ATF says a shotgun must have a stock for firing from the shoulder. If it has a pistol grip it is not a shotgun. This is probably old news but it blew my mind.

243winxb · July 29, 2016, 09:46 AM

In some states, if the total OAL of the firearm is to short, its treated as a handgun. State and Federal law do not always match.

**44 AMP** · July 29, 2016, 12:15 PM

It's old news for a lot of us. The ATF says a LOT of things that blow people's minds. AND, they change their minds from time to time, about what is, and isn't regulated, and how it is determined.

To find even a shred of logic (IF it actually exists) you have to look at how they define all the terms they use in definitions.

If it has a stock, and was designed to be fired from the shoulder, its a shotgun, a legal classification with a set of definitions. IF you cut the stock OFF, then its a "sawed off" shotgun (if it falls below the Fed overall min length)

If you cut the barrels short (below Fed min length) its also a "sawed off shotgun", even if the overall length is legal.

If the gun was never made with a stock, and was not designed to be fired from the shoulder, then it is a "smoothbore handgun", which is ALSO a regulated item, and has essentially the same requirements to own and penalties for non compliance that a sawed off shotgun has.

Its just different terms, and definitions all leading to the same place, if its not rifled, and under certain length specifications, then it is NFA regulated.

(also, just FYI, if it IS rifled, and under certain length specification, it is also NFA regulated - short barrel rifles and stocked pistols).

T. O'Heir · July 29, 2016, 01:05 PM

"...the ATF says..." Happens when elected representatives allow unelected civil servants to make law by regulation. Saddest part is they've exported that idea. sniff.
Same bunch says it's ok to possess .30 AP ammo, but 7.62NATO AP(M61 ammo, Stateside) is not.
Mind you, those unelected civil servants(Fish and Game types) also say a shotgun with a rifled barrel is still a shotgun.
"...To find even a shred of logic..." GEEZUZ! Don't even try. Give you brain damage.

FITASC · July 29, 2016, 02:42 PM

Quote:

If the gun was never made with a stock, and was not designed to be fired from the shoulder, then it is a "smoothbore handgun", which is ALSO a regulated item, and has essentially the same requirements to own and penalties for non compliance that a sawed off shotgun has.

My PGO 500 bought decades ago was an "AOW", Any Other Weapon; no regulation involved. They are still available to this day, IIRC.

dogtown tom · July 29, 2016, 04:20 PM

Quote:

44 AMP ....If the gun was never made with a stock, and was not designed to be fired from the shoulder, then it is a "smoothbore handgun", which is ALSO a regulated item, and has essentially the same requirements to own and penalties for non compliance that a sawed off shotgun has.

Not exactly.
Several manufacturers market "pistol grip only" firearms that expel a shotgun shell. They are Title I firearms and recorded as "Other Firearm" on the 4473.

Quote:

FITASC My PGO 500 bought decades ago was an "AOW", Any Other Weapon; no regulation involved. They are still available to this day, IIRC.

Not AOW, but Other Firearm......there is a huge difference.

An AOW or Any Other Weapon is an NFA firearm, requiring a $200 tax stamp to make or a $5 tax stamp to transfer. If you want to put a shoulder stock on it you'll have to pay $200 to make it a short barreled shotgun.

FITASC · July 29, 2016, 06:50 PM

Thanks for the clarification!

Bushmaster1313 · July 30, 2016, 11:37 PM

Be careful out there

The Gun Police have a tough job with lots of bureaucratic pressure

When it comes to seemingly minor technical violations do not assume they will give you a break

ifithitu · August 26, 2016, 08:49 PM

I never knew that ,I got a Mossberg 500 pistol grip 12 Ga. pump shotgun,and bought a folding ATI stock for it a month ago.So I guess I made it a shotgun right?

Blindstitch · August 26, 2016, 09:22 PM

Is your Mossberg pistol grip labeled with anything that would suggest it has to be a pistol or shotgun. Maybe a name code or addition to the serial number. If not I guess nobody knows.

Just got a 500a and 500c here.

dogtown tom · August 28, 2016, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Blindstitch Is your Mossberg pistol grip labeled with anything that would suggest it has to be a pistol or shotgun.

Smoothbore firearms that expel a shotgun shell cannot be a "pistol".
A Mossberg is only sold as a shotgun (has bbl and shoulder stock) or as an Other Firearm (a firearm with a pistol grip that expels a shotgun shell).

July 29, 2016, 09:41 AM	#1
HughScot Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2016 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 166	When's a Shotgun Not a Shotgun I read the most amazing thing yesterday, the ATF says a shotgun must have a stock for firing from the shoulder. If it has a pistol grip it is not a shotgun. This is probably old news but it blew my mind.

July 29, 2016, 12:15 PM	#3
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	It's old news for a lot of us. The ATF says a LOT of things that blow people's minds. AND, they change their minds from time to time, about what is, and isn't regulated, and how it is determined. To find even a shred of logic (IF it actually exists) you have to look at how they define all the terms they use in definitions. If it has a stock, and was designed to be fired from the shoulder, its a shotgun, a legal classification with a set of definitions. IF you cut the stock OFF, then its a "sawed off" shotgun (if it falls below the Fed overall min length) If you cut the barrels short (below Fed min length) its also a "sawed off shotgun", even if the overall length is legal. If the gun was never made with a stock, and was not designed to be fired from the shoulder, then it is a "smoothbore handgun", which is ALSO a regulated item, and has essentially the same requirements to own and penalties for non compliance that a sawed off shotgun has. Its just different terms, and definitions all leading to the same place, if its not rifled, and under certain length specifications, then it is NFA regulated. (also, just FYI, if it IS rifled, and under certain length specification, it is also NFA regulated - short barrel rifles and stocked pistols). __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 29, 2016, 01:05 PM	#4
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...the ATF says..." Happens when elected representatives allow unelected civil servants to make law by regulation. Saddest part is they've exported that idea. sniff. Same bunch says it's ok to possess .30 AP ammo, but 7.62NATO AP(M61 ammo, Stateside) is not. Mind you, those unelected civil servants(Fish and Game types) also say a shotgun with a rifled barrel is still a shotgun. "...To find even a shred of logic..." GEEZUZ! Don't even try. Give you brain damage. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 29, 2016, 06:50 PM	#7
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	Thanks for the clarification! __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

August 26, 2016, 08:49 PM	#9
ifithitu Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2016 Location: Derby City KY. Posts: 243	I never knew that ,I got a Mossberg 500 pistol grip 12 Ga. pump shotgun,and bought a folding ATI stock for it a month ago.So I guess I made it a shotgun right? __________________ USMC Vietnam Veteran,0311 Grunt. 6/68 to 7/69 Semper Fi

July 29, 2016, 09:46 AM	#2
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	In some states, if the total OAL of the firearm is to short, its treated as a handgun. State and Federal law do not always match.

July 30, 2016, 11:37 PM	#8
Bushmaster1313 Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2008 Posts: 339	Be careful out there The Gun Police have a tough job with lots of bureaucratic pressure When it comes to seemingly minor technical violations do not assume they will give you a break

August 26, 2016, 09:22 PM	#10
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	Is your Mossberg pistol grip labeled with anything that would suggest it has to be a pistol or shotgun. Maybe a name code or addition to the serial number. If not I guess nobody knows. Just got a 500a and 500c here.