Hungarian Mauser

BoogieMan · November 12, 2015, 01:28 PM

As its my heritage im intrigued by all Hungarian guns from the great war to nearly present.
Anyway I see Hungarian 35M's being listed as made in Budapest (Feg) also find the 43Ms. The problem I have is the price they seem to bring. I would like to pick one up to add to my collection of Magyar guns. Are they worth $2k plus? Are they that rare? I would like to know how many were made and at what time and what for etc.... Where do I look?
Also I have found a decent buy on one with a sported stock. Is it possible to find an original stock and how badly does that effect the possible value of such a rifle.
Is either rifle interchangeable to the German standards?

BoogieMan · November 12, 2015, 01:41 PM

Scratch that. I found the info with a little more searching and reading.
Does anyone have one? Any thoughts on quality? I would also like to know about anyone that might be ready to part with theirs.

James K · November 12, 2015, 07:03 PM

Those Hungarian rifles are not Mausers, they are a modified Mannlicher design, using an "en bloc" clip which was inserted into the rifle magazine. The Model 35M is chambered for the 8x56R; many were modified to use the German 7.9 cartridge with a Mauser type box magazine and use the standard Mauser "stripper" clip.

The Germans called the modified rifle the Gewehr 98/40, and Hungary adopted it as the Model 43, with some changes to make it look even more like the K.98k. They were used as a substitute standard by the Germans and also by Hungarian troops on the Eastern Front. (Hungary was a German ally and the Germans provided ammunition, so modifying the rifles to use the 7.9 made sense.)

Since almost all the use of those rifles was on the Russian front, few were brought back by Americans and later importation of surplus arms from the Iron Curtain countries was banned. So there are relatively few in the U.S. today and they are fairly rare. Given the current prices of common WWII rifles, I am inclined to think that a good 35M or 98/40 might well be worth over $1000, though I don't know if double that would be reasonable.

Jim

BoogieMan · November 12, 2015, 09:40 PM

Jim- thank you for the insight. I have been shopping all the online sources I can find them. Most sights have 1 or 2. Original numbers matching guns tend to be $2500 mismatched originals in the $1600-2000 range and I found one that appears original matching except for sport stock. That one is in the $500 range. I am considering picking that one up and trying to find a stock. With the relatively rare gun I don't think the chances of finding a stock are favorable.

gyvel · November 12, 2015, 10:09 PM

Auction # 521268044

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=521268044

Here's a sporterized one on Gunbroker now for $325 buy it now. I'd jump on it. I think stocks pop up every now and then.

BoogieMan · November 13, 2015, 07:38 AM

Is there a difference between a 98/40 and a 43M? Is it simply the nomenclature difference between German and Hungarian forces?
So the progression was the M95 (8x50r) M95/31 (8x56r) 35M (8x56R) 43M (8x57) M43 (7.62x54r)
I am trying to get my history correct and make sure I have all the rifles. So please correct me if needed. I am trying to cover everything from WWI to the time when Hungary went full auto for both rifle and side arm.
Pistol would be:
M1912 (Steyr-Hahn) 12M (Frommer Stop) 37M (FEG) PA63(FEG)
Again, please feel free to fill in any holes or correct me.

BoogieMan · November 13, 2015, 07:40 AM

@gyvel- I did see that auction and I have several questions into the seller. It may be a bargain to help fill in my collection and possibly be restored or culled when a superior example is found.

James K · November 13, 2015, 02:34 PM

When the Austro-Hungarian Empire broke up after WWI, Hungary became independent, but its new army still was equipped with the same weapons they had as part of the imperial armed forces.

By the mid-1930's just about everyone in Europe, and anyone in the U.S. with any smarts, knew that another war was coming and their armed forces made great efforts to update their armaments. Hungary was then armed with old Mannlicher 1895's rechambered to the 8x56R cartridge, called the Model 30 scharfe S-Patrone by Austria. That rifle was called the Huzagol (rifle) 31M by Hungary.

Not entirely satisfied with the old Mannlichers, the Hungarians decided to design their own rifle, which ended up as a combination of features of the Mauser, the German German 1888 Commission Rifle, and the Mannlicher. The magazine was Mannlicher and it used the same en bloc clip as the 31M. That was the Huzagol 35M. It has the rather odd feature of a two piece stock with a receiver socket, on the same idea as the British SMLE; the reason for that is obscure - presumably it was for the same reason as the British, the ability to accommodate soldiers of differing stature. It was a short (medium length) rifle, bearing a resemblance to the German K.98k of the same era, but was an entirely different rifle which would not even accept the German bayonet.

After WWII began, the Germans began to look for additional sources of small arms to supplement German production. They used factories in occupied countries, but also purchased arms from countries like Romania and Hungary, which were German allies. They liked the 35M but didn't care for the rimmed cartridge and en bloc clip, to they had the Hungarians rechamber the rifle to 8x57IS (7.9), bend the bolt handle down, and modify the magazine to a Mauser-type staggered column loading from the standard clip. They also had the bayonets modified to the standard German type attachment and the rifle changed to take that and, of course, the standard German bayonet. The Germans called that modified 35M the G. (Gewehr) 98/40. Those rifles were issued to both German forces and to Hungarian troops fighting in Russia.

In 1943, Hungary formally adopted the 7.9 cartridge, and began production of the Huzagol 43. That rifle was basically the same as the G. 98/40, but reverted to the old bayonet attachment. There were a few minor changes to the barrel bands.

HTH

Jim

gyvel · November 13, 2015, 06:27 PM

Quote:

M1912 (Steyr-Hahn) 12M (Frommer Stop) 37M (FEG) PA63(FEG)

Regarding your pistol list, the 1907 Roth-Steyr should be included as it was widely used in WWI and for sometime after. They were manufactured both at Steyr and at Budpest.

Next, after the Frommer, would come the 29M, predecessor to the 37m.

Your next pistol in line would be the 48m Walam, predecessor of the PA63.

BoogieMan · November 16, 2015, 10:19 AM

I won a auction on a 43M with a sported stock and non-matching bolt. Not sure why I even bid on it. But it looks nice in pics & description and for $225 I cant get hurt on the deal to bad.
Can someone clarify- The 43M was made by Feg for use by Hungarian troops fighting alongside German troops. The 98/40 was produced by Feg under contract to supply German troops.
From what I understand the only difference is the magazine release button and the stamping. 43M -vs- G98/40 on side of receiver and on top the G98 would have the eagle over swastika -vs- the COA of the Kingdom of Hungary. along with some difference in how the individual parts are serialized etc..
From what I understand the rifle is in many ways superior to the K98. Comparable accuracy and smother action. The downside I see to this thing as a sporter it is expensive and or difficult to scope or expensive and difficult to find an original mil stock to return it to its former glory.
How similar is this to the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles? would any parts such as stocks and scope mounts interchange?

James K · November 17, 2015, 01:14 PM

The H43 differed in several ways from the G.98/40. The front sight is different and the bayonet attachment takes the old Hungarian bayonet instead of the Mauser bayonet.

The H35M, G.98/40 and H43 are all turnbolt rifles; the Mannlichers they replaced were straight pull actions. As noted above, the 35M used the Mannlicher style en bloc clip, which entered the action the same as in the older rifles (similar to the U.S. M1 rifle). The later rifles use the standard German type Mauser "stripper" clip.

The 35M bolt was copied from that of the Mannlicher-Schoenauer, but the M-S uses the Schoenauer revolving magazine instead of either the original Mannlicher en bloc clip or the Mauser staggered column type.

I have no idea on parts interchangeability from one rifle to another, but I doubt that many important parts would be the same. Scope mounts might but none of those rifles are "scope friendly" since they require either a high base and rings or a side mount to allow clearance for the bolt handle.

Jim

November 12, 2015, 01:28 PM	#1
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Hungarian Mauser As its my heritage im intrigued by all Hungarian guns from the great war to nearly present. Anyway I see Hungarian 35M's being listed as made in Budapest (Feg) also find the 43Ms. The problem I have is the price they seem to bring. I would like to pick one up to add to my collection of Magyar guns. Are they worth $2k plus? Are they that rare? I would like to know how many were made and at what time and what for etc.... Where do I look? Also I have found a decent buy on one with a sported stock. Is it possible to find an original stock and how badly does that effect the possible value of such a rifle. Is either rifle interchangeable to the German standards? __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

November 12, 2015, 01:41 PM	#2
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Scratch that. I found the info with a little more searching and reading. Does anyone have one? Any thoughts on quality? I would also like to know about anyone that might be ready to part with theirs. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

November 12, 2015, 09:40 PM	#4
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Jim- thank you for the insight. I have been shopping all the online sources I can find them. Most sights have 1 or 2. Original numbers matching guns tend to be $2500 mismatched originals in the $1600-2000 range and I found one that appears original matching except for sport stock. That one is in the $500 range. I am considering picking that one up and trying to find a stock. With the relatively rare gun I don't think the chances of finding a stock are favorable. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

November 12, 2015, 10:09 PM	#5
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Auction # 521268044 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=521268044 Here's a sporterized one on Gunbroker now for $325 buy it now. I'd jump on it. I think stocks pop up every now and then. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

November 13, 2015, 07:38 AM	#6
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Is there a difference between a 98/40 and a 43M? Is it simply the nomenclature difference between German and Hungarian forces? So the progression was the M95 (8x50r) M95/31 (8x56r) 35M (8x56R) 43M (8x57) M43 (7.62x54r) I am trying to get my history correct and make sure I have all the rifles. So please correct me if needed. I am trying to cover everything from WWI to the time when Hungary went full auto for both rifle and side arm. Pistol would be: M1912 (Steyr-Hahn) 12M (Frommer Stop) 37M (FEG) PA63(FEG) Again, please feel free to fill in any holes or correct me. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

November 12, 2015, 07:03 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Those Hungarian rifles are not Mausers, they are a modified Mannlicher design, using an "en bloc" clip which was inserted into the rifle magazine. The Model 35M is chambered for the 8x56R; many were modified to use the German 7.9 cartridge with a Mauser type box magazine and use the standard Mauser "stripper" clip. The Germans called the modified rifle the Gewehr 98/40, and Hungary adopted it as the Model 43, with some changes to make it look even more like the K.98k. They were used as a substitute standard by the Germans and also by Hungarian troops on the Eastern Front. (Hungary was a German ally and the Germans provided ammunition, so modifying the rifles to use the 7.9 made sense.) Since almost all the use of those rifles was on the Russian front, few were brought back by Americans and later importation of surplus arms from the Iron Curtain countries was banned. So there are relatively few in the U.S. today and they are fairly rare. Given the current prices of common WWII rifles, I am inclined to think that a good 35M or 98/40 might well be worth over $1000, though I don't know if double that would be reasonable. Jim

November 13, 2015, 07:40 AM	#7
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	@gyvel- I did see that auction and I have several questions into the seller. It may be a bargain to help fill in my collection and possibly be restored or culled when a superior example is found. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

November 13, 2015, 02:34 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	When the Austro-Hungarian Empire broke up after WWI, Hungary became independent, but its new army still was equipped with the same weapons they had as part of the imperial armed forces. By the mid-1930's just about everyone in Europe, and anyone in the U.S. with any smarts, knew that another war was coming and their armed forces made great efforts to update their armaments. Hungary was then armed with old Mannlicher 1895's rechambered to the 8x56R cartridge, called the Model 30 scharfe S-Patrone by Austria. That rifle was called the Huzagol (rifle) 31M by Hungary. Not entirely satisfied with the old Mannlichers, the Hungarians decided to design their own rifle, which ended up as a combination of features of the Mauser, the German German 1888 Commission Rifle, and the Mannlicher. The magazine was Mannlicher and it used the same en bloc clip as the 31M. That was the Huzagol 35M. It has the rather odd feature of a two piece stock with a receiver socket, on the same idea as the British SMLE; the reason for that is obscure - presumably it was for the same reason as the British, the ability to accommodate soldiers of differing stature. It was a short (medium length) rifle, bearing a resemblance to the German K.98k of the same era, but was an entirely different rifle which would not even accept the German bayonet. After WWII began, the Germans began to look for additional sources of small arms to supplement German production. They used factories in occupied countries, but also purchased arms from countries like Romania and Hungary, which were German allies. They liked the 35M but didn't care for the rimmed cartridge and en bloc clip, to they had the Hungarians rechamber the rifle to 8x57IS (7.9), bend the bolt handle down, and modify the magazine to a Mauser-type staggered column loading from the standard clip. They also had the bayonets modified to the standard German type attachment and the rifle changed to take that and, of course, the standard German bayonet. The Germans called that modified 35M the G. (Gewehr) 98/40. Those rifles were issued to both German forces and to Hungarian troops fighting in Russia. In 1943, Hungary formally adopted the 7.9 cartridge, and began production of the Huzagol 43. That rifle was basically the same as the G. 98/40, but reverted to the old bayonet attachment. There were a few minor changes to the barrel bands. HTH Jim

November 16, 2015, 10:19 AM	#10
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	I won a auction on a 43M with a sported stock and non-matching bolt. Not sure why I even bid on it. But it looks nice in pics & description and for $225 I cant get hurt on the deal to bad. Can someone clarify- The 43M was made by Feg for use by Hungarian troops fighting alongside German troops. The 98/40 was produced by Feg under contract to supply German troops. From what I understand the only difference is the magazine release button and the stamping. 43M -vs- G98/40 on side of receiver and on top the G98 would have the eagle over swastika -vs- the COA of the Kingdom of Hungary. along with some difference in how the individual parts are serialized etc.. From what I understand the rifle is in many ways superior to the K98. Comparable accuracy and smother action. The downside I see to this thing as a sporter it is expensive and or difficult to scope or expensive and difficult to find an original mil stock to return it to its former glory. How similar is this to the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles? would any parts such as stocks and scope mounts interchange? __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown Last edited by BoogieMan; November 16, 2015 at 10:25 AM.

November 17, 2015, 01:14 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The H43 differed in several ways from the G.98/40. The front sight is different and the bayonet attachment takes the old Hungarian bayonet instead of the Mauser bayonet. The H35M, G.98/40 and H43 are all turnbolt rifles; the Mannlichers they replaced were straight pull actions. As noted above, the 35M used the Mannlicher style en bloc clip, which entered the action the same as in the older rifles (similar to the U.S. M1 rifle). The later rifles use the standard German type Mauser "stripper" clip. The 35M bolt was copied from that of the Mannlicher-Schoenauer, but the M-S uses the Schoenauer revolving magazine instead of either the original Mannlicher en bloc clip or the Mauser staggered column type. I have no idea on parts interchangeability from one rifle to another, but I doubt that many important parts would be the same. Scope mounts might but none of those rifles are "scope friendly" since they require either a high base and rings or a side mount to allow clearance for the bolt handle. Jim